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Old 7th April 2004, 02:00 PM   #1
roibm is offline roibm  Romania
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Location: Transylvania
Unhappy Bringing the truth...

For all those people that think the US or other countries act for helping the poor or for saving lives in places where they have no interest, I have a collection of links for you:

This mainly tells the story of what happened, why it happened and why the US didn't want to help(and worse: they denied at first that there was a genocide going on)

The link bellow has a brief overview among a picture gallery(which I can't recommend to anyone, it turns you inside out)

The Chronology of the US/UN events

I don't post this here because I have nothing against the americans as individuals, but I can't say I like the US as an entity and it's global policy. My beliefs are that there is difference between the people in a country and the country as an entity and it's politics.
I post it mainly because today I learned what the Rwanda Genocide was all about. Maybe I am the last person in the world to know the details, don't know really.
Anyway, it is a piece of history, something that happened and shall never happen again(altho considering our capability to hate it could happen anywhere and at any time).
It's deeply sad to see how people kill each other, most of the times for nothing, just ideology.
It's deeply(maybe even more) sad to see the one that could take action against such a massacre remain passive(maybe if Rwanda would have had oi or drugs or whatever this wouldn't have happened).

And for those that would like to point me at websites about the Holocaust, I know a lot about it, so keep it cool.
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Old 7th April 2004, 08:22 PM   #2
Netlist is offline Netlist  Belgium
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Thanks for the informative links.
Although I have sympathy for your feelings and statements, be careful with the word “Truth”.
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Old 7th April 2004, 08:30 PM   #3
roibm is offline roibm  Romania
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Location: Transylvania
Originally posted by Netlist
be careful with the word “Truth”.
These days, in this world... you coudn't have said anything else closer to the truth

That's it, you can't really say what is true or what is false.
Thanks to the media in the first place and the education of the people in the second I would say(educated to believe almost anything their leaders want them to believe).
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Old 7th April 2004, 08:52 PM   #4
ace3000_1 is offline ace3000_1  Australia
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These days, in this world... you coudn't have said anything else closer to the truth
Pictures often speak a thousand words.
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Old 7th April 2004, 10:46 PM   #5
B.VDBOS is offline B.VDBOS  New Zealand
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If you can get "News hour with Jim Lehrer" I highly recommend this.
Its the only American news worth watching with regard to the real war
If you can, compar what is said here to what is said on Fox news (and the way it's said)

News hour with Jim Lehrer


Fox news (if you could call it that)

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Old 7th April 2004, 10:47 PM   #6
kelticwizard is offline kelticwizard  United States
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Bringing the truth...
It should be pointed out that in neighboring Burundi, the opposite occurred. There, the Tutsi massacred the Hutus.

That latest fighting, incidentally, spilled over into Zaire, which in turn morphed into it's own large-scale civil war of unimaginable ferocity. Reports of women having their babies cut out of their womb before being murdered themselves, etc.

The Rwanda-Burundi thing has been going on since at least 1972, when our town's local newspaper carried AP reports of a massacre of some 100,000 in one nation by the Tutsis or Hutus and the next day, a massacre of the opposite group in the other nation. There was virtually no coverage after that, no discussion, nothing on TV, no Administration spokesmen commenting on it, nothing.

Two days of massacres, then nothing.

A similar massacre and counter massacre happened the following decade, I believe.

I frankly do not know what it takes for one disaster or another to grab the world's attention, just as I don't know why one murder or another grab's a country's attention and the others go unnoticed. Why is Rwanda ignored? Why is the Scott Peterson case on the evening news in the US every day, when so many hundreds of men kill their wives every year and you never hear about it?

I don't know.
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
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Old 8th April 2004, 12:49 AM   #7
B.VDBOS is offline B.VDBOS  New Zealand
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Words of a deluded mad man

My fellow citizens, at this hour American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign.

More than 35 countries are giving crucial support, from the use of naval and air bases, to help with intelligence and logistics, to the deployment of combat units. Every nation in this coalition has chosen to bear the duty and share the honor of serving in our common defense.

To all of the men and women of the United States armed forces now in the Middle East, the peace of a troubled world and the hopes of an oppressed people now depend on you.

That trust is well placed.

The enemies you confront will come to know your skill and bravery. The people you liberate will witness the honorable and decent spirit of the American military.

In this conflict, America faces an enemy who has no regard for conventions of war or rules of morality. Saddam Hussein has placed Iraqi troops and equipment in civilian areas, attempting to use innocent men, women and children as shields for his own military -- a final atrocity against his people.

I want Americans and all the world to know that coalition forces will make every effort to spare innocent civilians from harm. A campaign on the harsh terrain of a nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment.

We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people.

I know that the families of our military are praying that all those who serve will return safely and soon.

Millions of Americans are praying with you for the safety of your loved ones and for the protection of the innocent.

For your sacrifice, you have the gratitude and respect of the American people and you can know that our forces will be coming home as soon as their work is done.

Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly, yet our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder.

We will meet that threat now with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of firefighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

Now that conflict has come, the only way to limit its duration is to apply decisive force. And I assure you, this will not be a campaign of half measures and we will accept no outcome but victory.

My fellow citizens, the dangers to our country and the world will be overcome. We will pass through this time of peril and carry on the work of peace. We will defend our freedom. We will bring freedom to others. And we will prevail.

May God bless our country and all who defend her. .

The seizure of Iraq was the first large-scale test of a foreign policy tool refined at the National Defence University (NDU) and published as a book, 'Shock and Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance,' by the NDU Press in 1996. The book has since been taken out of circulation, but replicas can be found on the internet

Shock and Awe
Achieving Rapid Dominance

Harlan K. Ullman
and James P. Wade
L.A. "Bud" Edney,
Fred M. Franks,
Charles A. Horner,
Jonathan T. Howe, and
Keith Brendley

National Defense University Press


Heres your "terrorists"
Wait for all the photos to download if youv'e got the guts

'This is the fun stuff,' Sgt. Jeremy Gray of the organised psy-war division was quoted in the Washington Times. The goal, of course, was to instill amongst Iraqis, both military and civilian, panic and despair. Not only were the realistic sounds intended to confuse and humiliate, but also to render fighting forces ineffective in battle, incapable of knowing where to fight, and believing themselves vastly outnumbered. The treachery was made all the more credible by two weeks of relentless air bombardment that had left a good part of the city's centre in ruin.
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Old 8th April 2004, 01:36 AM   #8
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Default Re: Bringing the truth...

Originally posted by roibm
why the US didn't want to help(and worse: they denied at first that there was a genocide going on)

I fell vindicated!

I mean, we have not found one thing in the world that the US is not responsible about: the genocide in Rwanda, red spots on the mars, WW2, nazi germany, Diana's death, flood in the Amazon, dying pandas in China, proliferation of Beyond, fire at the uranium city hospital, the potato plague, IRA, you just name it.

Wait, the bunnies in my backyard are multiplying like crazy. The US must have done it.

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Old 8th April 2004, 01:38 AM   #9
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Originally posted by B.VDBOS
Words of a deluded mad man
whenever you start a personal attack like that, your points are lost.

If you cannot respect others, you get no respect of others.
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Old 8th April 2004, 02:40 AM   #10
Brian Donaldson is offline Brian Donaldson  United States
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I've ofter wondered what kind of poisonous biggotry must these people feed their children to cause generations of haterd to the level of tryong to wipe eack other out as a tribe. How can they think that they are so different? It is a real shame to see a people go backwards waisting so much on violence instead of helping each other and advancing and contributing to that world.

Why did we stand by and watch. France and Germany was probibally taking bribes from both Tutsi and Hutu. the rest of Europe discussed and passed resolutions of condemnation. (reams of paper worth i'm sure.) Ans USA has no interest since we quit buying slaves. I know that's overly harsh and insinsative, but I really don't mean to stir things up this time.

Maybe we could drill for oil there and make the Rawandans rich, We could set up a democracy and they could elect a dictator who would have the power and money to really wipe the election looser out. I don't have a workable answer.

It always seems that the evil warlord crushes the kind, gentle, sweet and innocent farmers while the overly civilized say " don't do that or I'll pass a resolution."

We Americans like to think that we can right all of the wrongs of the world, but we cann't. Most of the time (except with the monumental wars) we screw thing up more than we help. We overthrow a dictator and leave a vacuum for the next tyrant to fill. and people who have lived generations under a tyrant don't seem to take to democracy often times. They seem to think democracy means the majority pass laws to crush the minority.

All I know is that the Soviet expansion had to be stopped, Hitler had to be stopped, and Japan had to be stopped. I think we were right to push Sadam out of Kuwaite and I think genocide should be stopped where ever it is found, but I don't think we can go around changing every government we don't like.

Which leads to another point. Taking out Sadam this time could be justified a dozen ways. He committed genocide against the Kurds. He tortured and killed hunderds of thousands of his people and he did sponser terrorism.
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