Since I know that much of the music I listen to is close-miked in the studio, I'm doubtful that I can reasonably expect anything more than left-right discrimination.
So I can see having an orchestra in a room is going to give more ambiance, and maybe some 3D effect, especially if you have some kind of binaural recording arrangement, but am I just wasting my time looking for this effect in an old Hendrix recording, where I know that the vocals have multiple tracks of Jimi doing la-la's with himself in the background?
So I can see having an orchestra in a room is going to give more ambiance, and maybe some 3D effect, especially if you have some kind of binaural recording arrangement, but am I just wasting my time looking for this effect in an old Hendrix recording, where I know that the vocals have multiple tracks of Jimi doing la-la's with himself in the background?
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Your suspicions are right, most recordings are 100% artificial in this respect. Listen to live acoustical music carefully,
do you hear an "audiophile" sound stage? The real thing is very different.
Most recordings are made by mixing together a mono channel of each voice or instrument, and have no actual "stereo" at all.
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Yes, you need a good recording of real instruments in an acoustic space, perhaps using a simple stereo pair mike setup. Even then some fill-in mikes will probably have been used.
Many years ago I used to attend the Prom concerts in London, and also listen to them on the BBC. In those days their sound engineers knew what they were doing, so when I listened to a broadcast I heard the same hall that I had been actually present in on the previous evening.
To "display a soundstage" you need to start with a musical performance which had a 'soundstage' to start with. That more or less rules out all popular music of almost any genre. A genuine 'unplugged' set would be OK, but my definition of unplugged is somewhat tighter than most peoples!
Many years ago I used to attend the Prom concerts in London, and also listen to them on the BBC. In those days their sound engineers knew what they were doing, so when I listened to a broadcast I heard the same hall that I had been actually present in on the previous evening.
To "display a soundstage" you need to start with a musical performance which had a 'soundstage' to start with. That more or less rules out all popular music of almost any genre. A genuine 'unplugged' set would be OK, but my definition of unplugged is somewhat tighter than most peoples!
Depends on the genre to some extent, as to what is available.
Most of the Chesky catalog, the Dorian Catalog, and some others that do not come to mind at the moment are modern recordings done with minimalist, high quality recording techniques.
All of the Rudy Van Gelder jazz recordings were done with 3 mics. Mostly on Blue Note.
Trying to remember his label, Pierre Despray I think... got his name wrong I expect.
There are quite a few "boutique" labels these days too. And, nothing prevents one from spending a few dollars to acquire your own digital recorder and make your own recordings at the local jazz club, chamber recital or choral concert, etc...
Most of the Chesky catalog, the Dorian Catalog, and some others that do not come to mind at the moment are modern recordings done with minimalist, high quality recording techniques.
All of the Rudy Van Gelder jazz recordings were done with 3 mics. Mostly on Blue Note.
Trying to remember his label, Pierre Despray I think... got his name wrong I expect.
There are quite a few "boutique" labels these days too. And, nothing prevents one from spending a few dollars to acquire your own digital recorder and make your own recordings at the local jazz club, chamber recital or choral concert, etc...
I recently read a book that was a hagiographic account of a well-known recording engineer, Bruce Swedien. In it, he (through the ghost writer) described all sorts of manipulations of multi-miked and multi-tracked recordings that were designed to give various illusions of space, depth, and ambience. Philosophically, there was no real "space" to begin with, so the question of "accuracy" is moot but the recordings do indeed give something beyond simple left-right panning.
I remember TAS going gaga over an early Island pressing of Bob
Marley (awesome LP IMHO), to me it sounded like every single member was in their own space. When I saw a documentary they were, in a big warehouse individually miked with big acoustic baffles between each other.
I've seen sketches by Paul McCartney which he done to show the engineer where in the virtual stereo space he was supposed to place the individual, close mic'd parts during mixing.
Don't remember for which album they were. At the time I didn't care since I don't actually like Paul's music so I never checked how successful the engineer was but it is not that difficult to massage a sound so it appears to be more distant or closer, left, right or centre.
Don't remember for which album they were. At the time I didn't care since I don't actually like Paul's music so I never checked how successful the engineer was but it is not that difficult to massage a sound so it appears to be more distant or closer, left, right or centre.
Apart from panning L/R, you can also run an instrument as a stereo channel, and add a little delay to one side. Combining the two can be very effective. The relative levels and delays gives the brain much more information to recreate the acoustic space.
I'll play around and see if I can knock something together to show what I mean - could be an interesting experiment.
Chris
I'll play around and see if I can knock something together to show what I mean - could be an interesting experiment.
Chris
All genres and recording techniques will yield a soundstage, as in that the sound elements will exist in spaces beyond the speakers, to the left and right of them, behind them to very great distances, even vertically positioned. The one place where the sounds won't be, is "in" the left and right speakers!
Of course, a very high percentage of systems aren't sufficiently "debugged" for this to be perceived, the sound "collapses" into the positions of the speakers unless one goes to all sorts of other efforts to try and build up some sort of illusion. The information always exists within recordings for all the behaviours of soundstaging to occur, but most of the time this data is too unclear for the ear/brain to unravel, the background sounds of the musical event are just heard as "messy", because the brain has rejected them as making sense.
Recordings which have been very carefully engineered to yield lots of obvious soundstaging information allow conventional systems to get the job done for the listener - all other tracks will require a "better" setup to make it happen ...
Of course, a very high percentage of systems aren't sufficiently "debugged" for this to be perceived, the sound "collapses" into the positions of the speakers unless one goes to all sorts of other efforts to try and build up some sort of illusion. The information always exists within recordings for all the behaviours of soundstaging to occur, but most of the time this data is too unclear for the ear/brain to unravel, the background sounds of the musical event are just heard as "messy", because the brain has rejected them as making sense.
Recordings which have been very carefully engineered to yield lots of obvious soundstaging information allow conventional systems to get the job done for the listener - all other tracks will require a "better" setup to make it happen ...
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If you want something that separates "man" systems from "boy" systems, 
, probably can't go past the original CD mastering of Led Zep I - forget the later, twiddled with remasterings, "nicefied" for conventional listening, .
This should produce cavernous, ginormous soundstages, sounds way, way, way in the distance - will make orchestral recordings sound like they've been done in the bathroom,.
A relatively poorly optimised setup will make this recording come across as if it's a complete mess - all the critical low level sound cues will not make sense, and subjectively the result is layers of grungy noise.
If you can't hear "big" sound with this album it's not your ears, but the playback at fault - this recording is very useful both at demonstrating how intensely the soundstaging effect can be manifested, and as a very easy, instant quality check of a system.
, probably can't go past the original CD mastering of Led Zep I - forget the later, twiddled with remasterings, "nicefied" for conventional listening, .This should produce cavernous, ginormous soundstages, sounds way, way, way in the distance - will make orchestral recordings sound like they've been done in the bathroom,
.A relatively poorly optimised setup will make this recording come across as if it's a complete mess - all the critical low level sound cues will not make sense, and subjectively the result is layers of grungy noise.
If you can't hear "big" sound with this album it's not your ears, but the playback at fault - this recording is very useful both at demonstrating how intensely the soundstaging effect can be manifested, and as a very easy, instant quality check of a system.
I presume that was "Make Mine Music." I read that, he stated over and over again that he used two mics as a stereo pair on every Michael Jackson vocal track so there's always the stereo ambience of the room in it.
Poking around, I just found this article specifically on Thriller and how several 24-track recorders were synced together to hold all the tracks:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov09/articles/swedien.htm
There's this, "True Love Ways," which I'm assuming was recorded in mono with one microphone (thus the antithesis of "stereo soundstage") and Buddy Holly singing fairly close, within a foot or so, and the other instruments around and behind him, spaced to get a good volume mix at the mic. There's much less reverberation on his voice than on the accompanying instruments naturally, because he's so much closer that his direct voice is much louder than are the reflections. Even in mono this has a really nice sound - it was the ACTUAL sound at the point in space where the microphone was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9J9FlarNOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9J9FlarNOA
Interesting ... I only have one CD of Michael Jackson's, Bad, but the layer upon layer of sound in that is quite remarkable - it's another example of soundstaging in action: you can focus in on one sound element in the mix and "see" it existing in its own space. This is the cocktail party effect in action, all the "voices" are active, are in "competition", but you can zoom in onto just one of the sounds, and listen to it exclusively, while still being aware of all the other sound entities, which you, the listener, have subjectively pushed into the background.
OK If you are looking for something that will really tell you if you have soundstage happening (like stuff way off to the left or right, or even behind you) from stereo pair of speakers, have a listen to "Amuzed to Death" by Roger Waters. It is more sound effects (things like people talking or other noises) but the effect is quite strong. It has been enhanced using Qsound.
If you don't hear it on that you aint going to hear it!
The whole album is on youtube and the quality is good enough for the effect to be heard. Tony.
"The Bruce Swedien Recording Method." Goes into a lot of detail about how he recorded and mixed lots of different instruments and albums. None of it is music I own or would listen to, but it was still very interesting.
In my present, rather strange, setup - I find that anything recorded in large space has great depth. Think concert hall or such. Other recordings are mostly flat.
I remember at the Dayton speaker contest that even on the same piece of music, some speakers gave a good sense of space, others not much at all. Not sure why that was.
I remember at the Dayton speaker contest that even on the same piece of music, some speakers gave a good sense of space, others not much at all. Not sure why that was.
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