Ah, the humpty-dumpty use of words.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
I don't know if he has the tools or sophistication to provide evidence either.
You may wish for "beyond a shadow of a doubt" in everything but sometimes we need to apply likelihood to have an accurate view.
If you paint a car red and people think it drives faster, that is not very likely.
If it has internal differences with laboratory performance specs and some people say it drives differently, that is rather high in the likely scale.
Just because there isn't a test track available to test that claim, doesn't render it untrue.
Since even the most recent DAC chips all have unique performance specs, I don't see why it's so unlikely that some people which have listened for a long time in a focused fashion can identify them, even in completely unknown equipment.
Even the finest differences in audio have a slight aesthetic touch to them, like sonic art, if you are personally inclined that way.
You may wish for "beyond a shadow of a doubt" in everything but sometimes we need to apply likelihood to have an accurate view.
If you paint a car red and people think it drives faster, that is not very likely.
If it has internal differences with laboratory performance specs and some people say it drives differently, that is rather high in the likely scale.
Just because there isn't a test track available to test that claim, doesn't render it untrue.
Since even the most recent DAC chips all have unique performance specs, I don't see why it's so unlikely that some people which have listened for a long time in a focused fashion can identify them, even in completely unknown equipment.
Even the finest differences in audio have a slight aesthetic touch to them, like sonic art, if you are personally inclined that way.
To use an actual example......
Your view, as far as I'm aware, defends the sound quality of the JDS Labs ODAC, versus dozens of other DAC's frequently spoken of in this forum.
I don't think they have "beyond a shadow of a doubt" improvements in them, in listening tests nor in virtual simulations.
They have different theory and performance specs.
That's why I said it seems like you are defending lesser sound quality, earlier in this thread, which I think is difficult to respect.
Just my views.
Your view, as far as I'm aware, defends the sound quality of the JDS Labs ODAC, versus dozens of other DAC's frequently spoken of in this forum.
I don't think they have "beyond a shadow of a doubt" improvements in them, in listening tests nor in virtual simulations.
They have different theory and performance specs.
That's why I said it seems like you are defending lesser sound quality, earlier in this thread, which I think is difficult to respect.
Just my views.
In a different thread here I saw someone call settling time "like the black levels in a TV screen".
After thinking about the impulse train recently I think that makes some sense.
Anyone can purchase an IC with a really long settling time if they want and try it for themselves.
That's known as research.
Minimum-phase has evidence I think, if it doesn't it's simply since no one feels the need to supply it.
Video op-amp is my personal listening experience, the Positive Feedback article is just a theory.
I hope someone/s reading find any of the above useful to their listening.
Later
After thinking about the impulse train recently I think that makes some sense.
Anyone can purchase an IC with a really long settling time if they want and try it for themselves.
That's known as research.
Minimum-phase has evidence I think, if it doesn't it's simply since no one feels the need to supply it.
Video op-amp is my personal listening experience, the Positive Feedback article is just a theory.
I hope someone/s reading find any of the above useful to their listening.
Later
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No - if you paint a car red, it is very likely that people do think it drives faster.
But it doesn't render it true either.
Just because something *can* happen is not proof that it actually does.
Speculation is cheap...
If you are addressing me, I have no idea what you are talking about. Where have I mentioned the JDS Labs ODAC?
Again, please show me where I am defending "lesser sound quality".
I find false accusations (no matter how silly) difficult to respect.
In an "evidenced based" product which fulfills all the DSP / signal theory you speak of.
It sort of became a representative of "your school" in some places. You indirectly support it, unless your school differs in some way which I'm not aware of.
Despite it's "status", it doesn't seem very popular around here at all.
That seems to tell me that measurements and theory are more important than the listening data.
Reasonable minds can understand that we can't have listening data of everything, plus that listening tests have shown to null over and over in some cases when they're definitely not supposed to, that's not very intuitive, but amazingly it's true.
Julf said:
Your listening evidence school, not you.
Have you turned up RocketScientist's posts on here where I take him to task on his claim of 'transparency' for the ODAC? Hilarious to see all the ducking and diving
Eventually it turned out the claim rested on a pronouncement by one of his admired gurus, Ethan Winer. Given the chance to objectively verify the claimed transparency, there was just...... tumbleweeds.Sorry, but you have no idea of what "school" I do or don't belong to. If you want to label me with whatever silly moniker you come up with, feel free, but don't expect me to pay any respect to your fantasies.
There seems to be quite a lot of things you are not aware of.
I still have no idea of who you are talking to here. My personal opinion is that measurements are an important part of verifying a design, but in the end, what counts is audible differences. And to verify audible differences, you need to make sure that is exactly what you test for - by using protocols such as double-blind ABX listening tests. The plural of anecdotes is still not data, even when listening, so you need to make sure you have listening *data*, not just opinions.
And if you don't have data, you have speculation, not facts.
NwAvGuy: O2 Headphone AmpHave you turned up RocketScientist's posts on here where I take him to task on his claim of 'transparency' for the ODAC? Hilarious to see all the ducking and diving
I do - but here in Holland you get good at tilting at windmills
Your new sig is great!
Thanks - shows that the more things change, the more they stay the same. And yours isn't too bad either - combining feedback and Vonnegut in the same sentence is not mainstream!
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