Did you burn to a disc and then used it in your system ..?
I have tried both SOTA SS and tube amps over the decades and keep going back to SS . I have enjoyed the sound of tubes on many occasions and my choice or for most really will fall mostly to speaker type and load. In my situation over the years is that SS Works for me , better sonics and reliability. On live recordings they deliver and ohhh , there is no twang from good tooobs...
Now, when it comes to Pre-amps all bets are off , a good toob pre is hard to beat, they do lack convenience thou ...
@a.wayne
No, it didn't seem necessary with a 30Mbps connection and I haven't got a cd player anyway.
@nigelwright
I too love valve instrument amps like the ones in my Hammond/Leslie combo or my guitar amp but what makes them irreplaceable there also makes them nearly unusable in my replay system. As for clipping SS amps: I think the police would be knocking on my door long before I get close since I run my speakers active with a total of just over 900W per channel. The drivers do between 91 and 107dB 1W/1m.
No, it didn't seem necessary with a 30Mbps connection and I haven't got a cd player anyway.
@nigelwright
I too love valve instrument amps like the ones in my Hammond/Leslie combo or my guitar amp but what makes them irreplaceable there also makes them nearly unusable in my replay system. As for clipping SS amps: I think the police would be knocking on my door long before I get close since I run my speakers active with a total of just over 900W per channel. The drivers do between 91 and 107dB 1W/1m.
If you are aiming for uncolored reproduction then the choice shouldn't really matter, assuming the systems (whether tube or solid-state) are good enough.
If you aim for colored sound then it's likely entirely up to preference and that "coloring" will vary from one amp design to another.
I play guitar and I have heard both great and bad sounding tube and solid-state amps in that application. Yes, I have encountered tube guitar amps that made me wonder why such horrible sounding things were even made. But that doesn't apply to all tube amps, like it doesn't apply to all solid-state amps. Especially in the realm of instrument amplification you bump into fact that amps can be widely different from each other.
Thus, personally I don't see any point of discussing this issue from the basis of mere generalisations. Comparisons make sense only in case-by-case basis and overall tend to fall to realm of great subjectivity.
What I do fell about "colored" reproduction in general is this: The effect can usually be very exciting for a while, but after you start to hear it everywhere you probably get tired to it pretty fast. Take for example some of these tube amps that are deliberately designed to have high levels of distortion, narrow bandwidth and very uneven response. They probably sound nice and unique for a moment but soon you start missing that natural sound which wasn't as heavily "effected". Probably applies more to listening stereos and entire musical context than to applications such as playing instruments where all kinds of effectation and filtering is usually essential "spicing up".
If you aim for colored sound then it's likely entirely up to preference and that "coloring" will vary from one amp design to another.
I play guitar and I have heard both great and bad sounding tube and solid-state amps in that application. Yes, I have encountered tube guitar amps that made me wonder why such horrible sounding things were even made. But that doesn't apply to all tube amps, like it doesn't apply to all solid-state amps. Especially in the realm of instrument amplification you bump into fact that amps can be widely different from each other.
Thus, personally I don't see any point of discussing this issue from the basis of mere generalisations. Comparisons make sense only in case-by-case basis and overall tend to fall to realm of great subjectivity.
What I do fell about "colored" reproduction in general is this: The effect can usually be very exciting for a while, but after you start to hear it everywhere you probably get tired to it pretty fast. Take for example some of these tube amps that are deliberately designed to have high levels of distortion, narrow bandwidth and very uneven response. They probably sound nice and unique for a moment but soon you start missing that natural sound which wasn't as heavily "effected". Probably applies more to listening stereos and entire musical context than to applications such as playing instruments where all kinds of effectation and filtering is usually essential "spicing up".
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@Planet10 I would disagree. It is just that even order are substantially less unpleasant because they are harmonically (speaking in a musical sense rather than technical) related to the 1st harmonic.
For example and expressed in musical notation here are the even order harmonics of G2 (98Hz): 2nd harmonic is G3 (196Hz), 4th is G4 (392Hz).
Odd order are: 3rd D4 (294Hz) and 5th is between B4 and B4 flat.
Point is none of them are part of the original signal and should be inaudible but no doubt 2nd and 4th order harmonics would make things sound fuller. I'd be kinda happy as long as ANY harmonics are -60dB (0.1%) or lower at all times.
For example and expressed in musical notation here are the even order harmonics of G2 (98Hz): 2nd harmonic is G3 (196Hz), 4th is G4 (392Hz).
Odd order are: 3rd D4 (294Hz) and 5th is between B4 and B4 flat.
Point is none of them are part of the original signal and should be inaudible but no doubt 2nd and 4th order harmonics would make things sound fuller. I'd be kinda happy as long as ANY harmonics are -60dB (0.1%) or lower at all times.
Yep, but that theory holds ONLY when you do not want to listen to distortion. If you prefer distortion then it's an entirely subjective matter which kinds of harmonics and which kind of distortion is "pleasant" or "unpleasant", or even "musical".
For instance in guitar amplifiers, whether tube or solid-state, it is common to introduce ludicrous amounts of distortion to the signal as an effect. The theory about "musical" and "less musical" harmonics or whatever can be thrown out the window right at that moment. What you see in the output of these effect devices will not comply with any of that theory.
We could just as well state that for good production of sound we want a system that reproduces the sound at full audible bandwidth (if not beyond) without any excessive attenuation or enhancement at specific frequencies. Sounds solid, right? Then take a typical overdriven guitar amp where the effective bandwidth ranges from 1 kHz to 5 kHz at best and is totally uneven across the spectrum which huge notches and bumps. Suddenly it's just the right kind of design in that application.
Theories of what make the best ideal reproduction devices do not apply to what make good effect devices.
For instance in guitar amplifiers, whether tube or solid-state, it is common to introduce ludicrous amounts of distortion to the signal as an effect. The theory about "musical" and "less musical" harmonics or whatever can be thrown out the window right at that moment. What you see in the output of these effect devices will not comply with any of that theory.
We could just as well state that for good production of sound we want a system that reproduces the sound at full audible bandwidth (if not beyond) without any excessive attenuation or enhancement at specific frequencies. Sounds solid, right? Then take a typical overdriven guitar amp where the effective bandwidth ranges from 1 kHz to 5 kHz at best and is totally uneven across the spectrum which huge notches and bumps. Suddenly it's just the right kind of design in that application.
Theories of what make the best ideal reproduction devices do not apply to what make good effect devices.
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But there are people who like to hear effects in the replay chain.
But as I said, for me personally, hearing them gets boring and disturbing pretty quickly when I hear them everywhere, in everything I listen.
Then again, some other people might feel different.
Entirely subjective issue in the end.
But if someone even throws around a term like "tube sound" then we definitely are talking about effects.
But as I said, for me personally, hearing them gets boring and disturbing pretty quickly when I hear them everywhere, in everything I listen.
Then again, some other people might feel different.
Entirely subjective issue in the end.
But if someone even throws around a term like "tube sound" then we definitely are talking about effects.
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I have no problems with a statement "I like the sound of tube amps."
However a statement like "I like tube amps because they are more accurate/realistic/etc." would appear a lot more contentious to me.
I do agree that pieces of kit which have much of a sound of their own in the replay chain get boring and annoying quickly. Particularly amps & speakers which are satisfying in the long run tend to be rather unimpressive at first listening and vice versa.
However a statement like "I like tube amps because they are more accurate/realistic/etc." would appear a lot more contentious to me.
I do agree that pieces of kit which have much of a sound of their own in the replay chain get boring and annoying quickly. Particularly amps & speakers which are satisfying in the long run tend to be rather unimpressive at first listening and vice versa.
i love the tube amps, have several st70s and knight monos, Fender hotrods.
the problem is my mancave is in south texas, upstairs only 15x15 so two st70s rapidly heat up the room.
i have them on display but usually crank up the Sansui AU-317.
Roague Audio probably saw the writing and went hybrid tube-D.
That i think is my future too but i will always keep the tube amps.
the problem is my mancave is in south texas, upstairs only 15x15 so two st70s rapidly heat up the room.
i have them on display but usually crank up the Sansui AU-317.
Roague Audio probably saw the writing and went hybrid tube-D.
That i think is my future too but i will always keep the tube amps.
if you convince yourself that tube amps are better than SS amps,
then probably that is what you get...
i build a lot of tube amps, but i have not convinced myself that tube amps are better...
because of that i can enjoy ss amps as well....
if you have just one amp, then over time you tend to find it ordinary...
having several that you can roll takes the boredom away...
then probably that is what you get...
i build a lot of tube amps, but i have not convinced myself that tube amps are better...
because of that i can enjoy ss amps as well....
if you have just one amp, then over time you tend to find it ordinary...
having several that you can roll takes the boredom away...
That reminds me of the time I wired my DC coupled OTL and a Crown K2 in such a way that the OTL's feedback loop was nominally in control of the duplicate setup. I did this by wiring power 20 watt 1 ohm resistors from the output of the K2 to the output terminals of the OTL, driving both off the same input signal, and setting the gain of the K2 to be just a smidgen less than that of the OTL.
Then I proceeded to play several songs at levels the OTL by itself could never reach. The combination sounded great until finally the sound suddenly died. I thought that I'd really done it then, but the OTL had merely blown a few fuses and the Crown K2 apparently just needed some time to recover. However, I never repeated that experiment
One problem here might have been that the K2 has a built in 3rd order HP filter at around 8 hz, while the OTL is flat to 1hz (and responds to DC - I rolled it off to unity gain at DC to minimize offset & keep it from amplifying any accidental DC content that might blow speakers or itself). With some musical material having sufficiently low frequency content, the two amps would have been fighting each other.
I've owned a number of other SS amps, and none have sounded as good as a decent tube amp. I could make my OTL be in the 0.01% distortion range up to full power, but that would probably be detrimental to its sound since I would have had to use some questionable feedback practices common to SS amps, so never bothered. As it is my OTL without negative feedback has nearly constant gain into 8 ohms out to 15 khz and its feedback benefits from that by maintaining a much more constant intrinsic damping ratio of ~100 across the audio band with moderate feedback. I have also introduced some positive current feedback to push the damping factor up several times beyond that, but that's another story.
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As generally indicated so far, the overall system should not have a sound - the only thing that has a particular 'sound' is, or should be, the recording. I have heard some tube amps, especially expensive ones, output very unpleasant sound - because they were generally behaving themeselves and just amplifying the defects elsewhere in the chain. Solid state is worse, as an arm waving statement, at picking up and exaggerating unpleasant, interference type distortion; well behaved silicon will present super cuddly, warm the cockles of your heart, sound if the recording was made that way ...
I can agree with this , i have a recording with both clapton and BB king going at it , sounds best on the edge , it was recorded that way ....
I remember this debate from times past, but the matter of tube versus SS was less the issue than Tailoring the sound through good design The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com Conrad J. vs B Carver! I like the sound of my (Vintage Magavox) tube amp even if it is not so accurate. It sounds its best when paired with my 1970s Toshiba SS pre-amp with vinyl! Though not my favorite amp it is vary good at moderate volume. My favorite is the Marchant Audio 301 with DIY tube pre-amp!
Years ago I read an interview with Bob Carver in which he said that the main audible difference between tube and SS amps comes from their output impedance (damping factor). Stick a suitable resistor between SS amp and speaker and you got 90% of the audible differences between SS and tube amps.
My own experience does mirror his comments despite the fact that many claim that DF differences are inaudible (usually referring to published articles which for some reason use cable resistances orders of magnitude higher in their calculations than the cheap 11 gauge cables I use).
My own experience does mirror his comments despite the fact that many claim that DF differences are inaudible (usually referring to published articles which for some reason use cable resistances orders of magnitude higher in their calculations than the cheap 11 gauge cables I use).
I would add power supply filtering to this. I have a Dynaco Stereo 70, and I once tried adding capacitance to the existing electrolytic can 20uf section across the output stage supply. I found that doing so dramatically reduced the characteristic Stereo 70 'sound' at higher levels, but ultimately backed off to merely adding 22uF to keep some of the original sound and also to avoid possible stress to the tube rectifier. Power supply droop is also a fairly well known part of the equation regarding tube guitar amp 'sounds'.
Solid state amps also are affected sonically by supply droop (or lack of stiffness). I have a Hafler DH220 which has received criticism in reviews of its LF performance because of what was felt to be less than an optimal amount of output stage filter capacitance. The effect is not like that of the Stereo 70, however!
Because my DC Coupled OTL has 15,000 uf (CLC) including 80uF polypropylene across each output stage supply rail, it has relatively few problems with power supply shortcomings (in effect, this acts as if it is even stiffer since, into 8 ohms, the output stage will reach only half the 160Vdc of each supply polarity before clipping). On the bench, it closely resembles a solid state amplifier in most characteristics, but playing music, it retains most of the tube qualities that put tubes over SS musically.
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