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Old 13th February 2018, 01:29 AM   #13891
nezbleu is online now nezbleu  Canada
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Oh now I see! The "gimbal" is not a closed circle (or cylinder), there is a slot in the top and the bus bar fits through the slot and sits on the tone arm proper. There was indeed something I was missing.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:35 AM   #13892
nezbleu is online now nezbleu  Canada
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Just one more quibble.

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Originally Posted by MITsound View Post
I chose the location after adding mass at the headshell, which I felt needed too much anti skate adjustment.
How is antiskate affected by mass? It is a function of stylus drag and geometry. Stylus drag is proportional to VTF, but not to effective arm mass per se. Did you use a test record to determine correct anti skate setting?

Edit:. This is far too useful to be in the snake oil thread, it should be in Analog Source.
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Old 13th February 2018, 02:03 AM   #13893
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezbleu View Post
I don't understand this. It looks like the bus bar does not move vertically, it is attached to the gimbal and only rotates horizontally. It should have no effect on vertical resonance. Am I missing something?
There is the warp thing as well, and it definitely changes the arm's vertical as well as horizontal mass. The cartridge's stylus is moving in both planes and sees those masses through its compliance.

The 103 punches way above its weight particularly when installed in something better than the flimsy stock plastic shell. I have had a number of very low compliance cartridges including the Zu Denon DL-103, and a bunch of SPUs, although I suspect that my current strain gauges are lower still. I think 20 gms + of effective mass is warranted.

Based on limited experience and absolutely no measurements at all I still suspect you need additional mass. The best way to get it might be a heavier head shell, this presupposes that you can still balance the arm.

FWIW the first cartridge I have owned that I considered good over more than a short period of time was that Zu DL-103.
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Old 13th February 2018, 02:37 AM   #13894
MITsound is offline MITsound  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezbleu View Post
Just one more quibble.



How is antiskate affected by mass? It is a function of stylus drag and geometry. Stylus drag is proportional to VTF, but not to effective arm mass per se. Did you use a test record to determine correct anti skate setting?

Edit:. This is far too useful to be in the snake oil thread, it should be in Analog Source.
I use an acrylic mat. Once everything is set for weight, I let the stylus land on it while spinning the platter, and dial the anti skate until the arm swings to the halfway point of its swing.
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Old 13th February 2018, 10:35 AM   #13895
nezbleu is online now nezbleu  Canada
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Interesting, I would not have expected that result. How much additional anti skate did you have to dial in with the blutac present?
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Old 13th February 2018, 12:23 PM   #13896
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MITsound View Post
I use an acrylic mat. Once everything is set for weight, I let the stylus land on it while spinning the platter, and dial the anti skate until the arm swings to the halfway point of its swing.
That's a new one on me.. It doesn't seem like a valid approach to me since the anti-skating force required is a function of arm geometry, stylus drag and radius. (The force required isn't constant) I suspect stylus geometry, and groove amplitudes also play a role since it affects drag, but I no longer have a way to check any of this as all of my arms are LTAs.

Applying mass at the head shell should have absolutely no effect on bias required unless the arm bearings are so mediocre that adding significant mass out at the end of the arm results in a significant increase in friction, but I don't know why that would not also be the case to some extent with more mass added closer to the fulcrum.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:48 PM   #13897
MITsound is offline MITsound  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinkr View Post
That's a new one on me.. It doesn't seem like a valid approach to me since the anti-skating force required is a function of arm geometry, stylus drag and radius. (The force required isn't constant) I suspect stylus geometry, and groove amplitudes also play a role since it affects drag, but I no longer have a way to check any of this as all of my arms are LTAs.

Applying mass at the head shell should have absolutely no effect on bias required unless the arm bearings are so mediocre that adding significant mass out at the end of the arm results in a significant increase in friction, but I don't know why that would not also be the case to some extent with more mass added closer to the fulcrum.
So where should the tonearm come to rest when the bias is set properly? Near the spindle, or the perimeter?
The tonearm swings easier than the Dual 506, Pro-Ject Elemental, or Akai 206 in house; I assumed this meant the DP 300-F has better bearings than those. There's also less rumble with it, but that involves more than the tonearm bearings. As to why the anti skate bias needed more with blutac added to the headshell and arm, I don't know.
LTA is linear tracking arms?
I remember being proud of a new Technics linear tracking table in the 80's; everyone immediately told me they were no good, because the masters were cut to account for pivoting arm playback. Tangential always made sense to me, especially P-mount.
My concern for buying a vintage one would be parts availability, as I found out with my (sniffle) Sony Biotracer. So I am hoping for a budget friendly new turntable solution, and so far this sounds great, to me. Subjectively, of course.
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Last edited by MITsound; 13th February 2018 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #13898
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MITsound View Post
So where should the tonearm come to rest when the bias is set properly? Near the spindle, or the perimeter? <snip>
I don't have an answer as I am not even really sure that what you are doing is a valid approach. The idea behind applying anti-skating is to compensate for the dynamic forces involved in playback that force the stylus to the outside edge of the groove, so presumably to set it correctly you need to play an appropriate track on a test record and look at the resulting output on a scope or follow the manufacturer's guidance which might be approximately correct. My last 12 inch arms did not even have provisions for anti-skating (Schick and clone 3012), but likely should have.

Record cutters are tangential, and at one time RCA and others did predistort the inner grooves in an effort to correct for tracking error induced distortion. It's not common today and some record companies never did it at all. In general the tangential arms seem to do better on the inner grooves than comparably priced pivoted arms regardless of whether pre-distortion is used or not. (Bear in mind this is my own very limited experience with just 3 LTAs over just a couple of years. So I am no authority in any sense)

There are a number of new air bearing LTAs out of China and elsewhere sold on eBay, I have no idea whether they are any good or not. Old Southers are available from time to time on eBay, and there isn't much to go wrong with those, and used ET-2/2.5 show up from time to time. I have two Southers and an ET-2.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:20 PM   #13899
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I'm trying a new technique of treating cables to improve the skin effect. Improving its elasticity and conductivity as a result.

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Formulated with snail mucus to refine skin texture & improve elasticity Provides instant freshness & vitality to skin Can also be used on hair. Leaves skin calm, soft, smooth & moist To use.
Does anyone have any upset cables they would like me to treat?

I've also heard that little fluffy white pillows as cable stands works well, so does singing them bedtime stories.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:17 PM   #13900
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Interesting !!!!

Are snails not animals ???

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