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Old 9th February 2018, 01:48 PM   #13791
kaputt is offline kaputt  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MITsound View Post
No home audio system I've heard so far, has the CRACK!!! and snap of a snare drum up close, however, at any volume setting.
+1

I'm still working on it and I will be forever without ever getting THERE.

But I've come closer in the last years...
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Old 11th February 2018, 02:43 AM   #13792
Max Headroom is online now Max Headroom  Australia
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Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
So here goes.....Test Files
Test Files - 01.png
When 'Direct Download' is clicked, Save As 'Test Files'.Zip dialogue is presented....save to location of your choice and unzip to location of your choice.
Now drag the newly created 'Test Files' folder into Foobar and the files will be presented as below with the order Standard/Treated 1/Treated 2.
Test Files - 02.png
All files are named same....for confirmation of file locations right click/Properties/Details or enable Columns/File Path.

It is now simple matter to switch between tracks and jump to track positions easily and reasonably instantly.
I have downloaded and played the files using the above method and have proven playback differences to my satisfaction.
I have not bothered to run Foobar ABX in this case because I have found it to mask fine differences somehow.

I have also in the past two weeks demonstrated Standard/Treated 1 files using my phone as a player either directly, using extenal battery powered speaker via cable or BT connection, truck factory audio system using cable or BT connection, and cable connection to home hifi to a dozen listeners and all subjects indicated difference and preference for the Treated 1 file with descriptions of differences matching.
No other listeners at this time have auditioned Treated 2 file.

So go ahead, take a close listen and a 'from the kitchen' listen to the three files and listen for the differences....the natures of the differences is a subject in itself.
Try on several systems as indicated above....the nature and level of effect can be variable according to the quality level of the playback system.

If everybody who takes a close listen indicates 'no differences' that is perfectly fine....the differences got masked/lost in the file download/transfer process or the listener is not alert to what to listen for.
If some listeners do indicate difference/preference it would be valuable to save subjective descriptions to an attached text file for later review and discussion.

Dan.

Last edited by Max Headroom; 11th February 2018 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 11th February 2018, 05:49 AM   #13793
nezbleu is offline nezbleu  Canada
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Funniest snake oil theories
Full marks, Max! I really did not believe you would upload any files in support of your claims, but there they are. Initial analysis indicates that the 3 files are identical. As expected, initial listening confirms that they are identical; I don't hear the slightest difference, but so far that's through my computer speakers. I will give them another listen via headphones tomorrow.

Of course I don't accept your "get out of jail free card": I would say that when uncoached listeners don't hear a difference it's because there is no difference to hear, and you know as well as I do that downloading a file does not change the content of the file.
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Old 11th February 2018, 07:10 AM   #13794
vacuphile is offline vacuphile  Netherlands
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Max, thanks for posting. I will have a good listen and then come back to you.

Best,
Paul
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Old 11th February 2018, 07:15 AM   #13795
Max Headroom is online now Max Headroom  Australia
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From another thread.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
The next thing that is a known issue is that the listener needs some training and practice with the testing. What often happens is that in normal listening System 1 processes in the brain are doing most or all of the heavy lifting automatically and effortlessly.

When someone is tested without proper preparation what happens is they automatically recruit System 2 processes to try to consciously analyze what they are listening to and for. People who know a little about frequencies start listening for frequency differences between samples. Essentially, they stop letting powerful System 1 processes do their work and substitute far weaker System 2 processes. Training and practice among other things serve to allow the listener to let go, relax, and just listen without thinking about it consciously at all. (Which is probably what they were doing if and when they said they could hear some difference earlier prior to testing).
The skill is in being able to deliberately switch listening modes.
I could coach at this point, but I am deliberately not doing so.....for now.

Dan.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:03 AM   #13796
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Dan, On my computer the files all have different names:
C:\Users\PC1\Downloads\Test Files\Standard\THE_HEAVY_HITTERS_Acoustic_Project_-_A_Little_Bit_Closer_-_03_Come_A_Little_Bit_Closer[1].wav

C:\Users\PC1\Downloads\Test Files\Treated 2\THE_HEAVY_HITTERS_Acoustic_Project_-_A_Little_Bit_Closer_-_03_Come_A_Little_Bit_Closer[1].wav

C:\Users\PC1\Downloads\Test Files\Treated 2\THE_HEAVY_HITTERS_Acoustic_Project_-_A_Little_Bit_Closer_-_03_Come_A_Little_Bit_Closer[1].wav

The above are full names that Windows uses for the files. As a convenience to me, the user, it hides part of the filespecs that we think of a locations. Actually, the locations are artificial concepts to make us think the files are in different places. They aren't. There are all scattered in clusters of blocks around a physical disk. What is different about them is how the starting block of each file is indexed so it can be found.

Some of the details vary from operating system to operating system, but that's the general idea. How it works at a physical level is very different from how papers in a physical filing cabinet are stored.

Also, if stored on a phone or other solid state memory device, the blocks that contain the information in the file, the bits, are subject to being moved around to different physical locations in the memory device. It isn't necessarily all the file blocks that get moved, it may just be a few blocks per file as needed. The reason is for wear leveling of SSD memories and possibly other reasons having to do with physical block properties.

Because of all the foregoing, it's hard for me to understand how the files could be considered to have the same names and how their logical pretend locations could be ignored as though they were actually in different physical locations and held there without interruption until someone moves them.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:07 AM   #13797
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
From another thread.....

The skill is in being able to deliberately switch listening modes.
I could coach at this point, but I am deliberately not doing so.....for now.

Dan.
I would say there is more to it than that, but I was trying to give the Reader's Digest condensed version in a specific context.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:39 AM   #13798
gpauk is offline gpauk  Scotland
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So, Dan, can you tell us how the files were "treated"? Without saying which is which, of course.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:44 AM   #13799
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Ah, you spoiled my joke by editing, tut-tut!

No matter:

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
So, Dad, can you tell us how the files were "treated"? Without saying which is which, of course.
***************

So......... Freudian slip?
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:46 AM   #13800
Max Headroom is online now Max Headroom  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
Dan, On my computer the files all have different names.....
Hi Mark.
You should end up with three folders (Standard/Treated 1/Treated 2) each containing a 44k/24bit wav file of same filename.
The Standard file is as I downloaded from the original source and transferred to my phone SD card using standard USB cable, and today uploaded to Dropbox via standard USB cable with no filters fitted.
The Treated 1 file was transferred to the phone using standard USB cable with old filters fitted, and today uploaded to Dropbox via standard USB cable with old filters fitted.
The Treated 2 file is the phone stored Standard file transferred to Dropbox location using standard USB cable fitted with alternative (new) filters.

I then logged out of Dropbox and used the link I supplied to download the Zip file of folders/files to my laptop HD, unzipped to another location (Music Folder) and then auditioned in Foobar.

I hear the Standard/Treated 1 files differences that I am already familiar with, with Treated 2 file a new to me sound.
In sighted testing today I readily discern differences and I am confidant that I can tell them blind.....I will try the experiment tonight with my housemate at the keyboard/mouse and see how I go.

The first two files have been stored on my phone for more than six months and therefore have survived any wear leveling if performed.

Dan.

Update: My housemate just got home and had a blind one minute listen to each track and rated them as I do.....no looping/replaying, just straight one minute run through of each track in turn on portable powered speaker running 3.5mm line in from laptop headphone out before indicating his order of preference and subjective observations.

Last edited by Max Headroom; 11th February 2018 at 09:09 AM.
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