Looks like all of us hobbyists and DIY builders can't call ourselves engineers
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Scroll down to "Admissions"
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Scroll down to "Admissions"
See the discussion forum at the bottom of the page. Its on the second page of the discussion (not the second page of the article). JA seems to say that unless you have sold something in the marketplace you cannot call yourself an engineer, and so perhaps should not criticise those who are (in his opinion) engineers.
He is confusing engineer vs. hobbyist with professional vs. amateur. An amateur is someone who does something because he loves doing it. A professional gets paid to do it, and may be required by his peers or statute law to adhere to some standard of ethics. An engineer is someone who applies science to solve real-life problems. A hobbyist is someone who does something in his spare time, so is almost synonymous with amateur.
Someone who sells lots of poorly designed speakers is a professional, not an engineer.
He is confusing engineer vs. hobbyist with professional vs. amateur. An amateur is someone who does something because he loves doing it. A professional gets paid to do it, and may be required by his peers or statute law to adhere to some standard of ethics. An engineer is someone who applies science to solve real-life problems. A hobbyist is someone who does something in his spare time, so is almost synonymous with amateur.
Someone who sells lots of poorly designed speakers is a professional, not an engineer.
Ignore the main article and read the comments. "Admissions" is the title of one of the comments.
JA is, simply speaking, right. Though I haven't read most of the comments, from the 5-7 seconds I did spend reading them, JA's comment also was entirely out of the scope of the comments presented to anyone capable understanding written text. (A small minority of English readers, native or otherwise, sadly.)
Using out-of-scope diversions to "win" a debate is one of the classic techniques of propagandists and hacks, of course. Certainly, one must view JA as some combination of both propagandist and hack, even though he also provides a useful service to hobbyists by publishing real measurements of various speakers, including horizontal off-axis plots.
Still, as it stands JA's comment is strictly-speaking true. The gentlemen (presumably) in question can't claim the mantle of authority, in the way that someone with a track record of producing excellent speakers would. The merits of their arguments must speak entirely for themselves. (In this case, they do; the speaker's clearly a train wreck.)
Consider a disagreement about a minor point one that one is not interested enough to , if "Pallas" or someone else who engages audio on the hobbyist level exclusively was on one side, and David Smith (or someone else with a track-record of producing elite-level, superbly-engineered speakers) is on the other, one intuitively understands that burden of proof for each side is not the same: "Pallas" (or other hobbyist) has a much higher hurdle to clear than Mr. Smith would.
That's not to say all DIYers lack authority on loudspeaker design. In a "Battle of the Johns" (say, Krutke and Dr. Kreskovsky on one side, Atkinson on the other) any rational observer would give more weight to unsupported assertions by either John K than they would conflicting unsupported assertions by JA.
Using out-of-scope diversions to "win" a debate is one of the classic techniques of propagandists and hacks, of course. Certainly, one must view JA as some combination of both propagandist and hack, even though he also provides a useful service to hobbyists by publishing real measurements of various speakers, including horizontal off-axis plots.
Still, as it stands JA's comment is strictly-speaking true. The gentlemen (presumably) in question can't claim the mantle of authority, in the way that someone with a track record of producing excellent speakers would. The merits of their arguments must speak entirely for themselves. (In this case, they do; the speaker's clearly a train wreck.)
Consider a disagreement about a minor point one that one is not interested enough to , if "Pallas" or someone else who engages audio on the hobbyist level exclusively was on one side, and David Smith (or someone else with a track-record of producing elite-level, superbly-engineered speakers) is on the other, one intuitively understands that burden of proof for each side is not the same: "Pallas" (or other hobbyist) has a much higher hurdle to clear than Mr. Smith would.
That's not to say all DIYers lack authority on loudspeaker design. In a "Battle of the Johns" (say, Krutke and Dr. Kreskovsky on one side, Atkinson on the other) any rational observer would give more weight to unsupported assertions by either John K than they would conflicting unsupported assertions by JA.
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You can't just take Atkinson's comment out of context. The guy JohnnyR made some valid points, but he was also attacking Atkinson personally. Anybody who reads stereophile knows most of it is written to appeal to non-technical readers. They throw in just enough actual data (most of it manufacturer supplied, with a couple measurements) to give the appearance they know what they're talking about, and to try and back up the airy descriptions of sound they give. This is nothing new.
If you don't like it, don't subscribe. If you feel the need to point out errors, or misconceptions in an article, do so, but do it politely. Atkinson is not an audio engineer. He's a writer, and therefore he is out of bounds with his comment referring to DIY groups, and should apologize... But he won't.
* I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, just commenting on what I gathered from the comments under that article.
If you don't like it, don't subscribe. If you feel the need to point out errors, or misconceptions in an article, do so, but do it politely. Atkinson is not an audio engineer. He's a writer, and therefore he is out of bounds with his comment referring to DIY groups, and should apologize... But he won't.
* I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, just commenting on what I gathered from the comments under that article.
A point about Stereophile is that it is a commercial endeavor. It is not an engineering magazine. It is written by people who are not engineers. Though there have been some very detailed studies with Audio Precision test equipment used to show the actual measured response of loudspeakers if you read carefully you will see that often the reviews do not match the technical specification. They refuse to do double blind testing. And the most important fact is that no products are reviewed without a manufacturer advertising in the magazine. That fact alone should tell you something, these reviews are fairly much bought and paid for. Most speakers that are sold commercially use off the shelf components, nothing special and that is why so many sound so similar, they are just different boxes with the same exact speakers in the box. That is not engineering that is marketing and Industrial design.
Stereophile often reviews products with no ads every being run by the company! They have also given poor reviews to companies with large advertising budgets.
I don't know what JA's formal education background is but he has measured many speakers over the years, presented papers on these measurements and the correlations between them and the sound. He makes measurements with multiple types of test equipment not just AP and he is active at recording. I think he knows what he is doing after all these years. You can disagree with the reviews but don't need to attack the man or the magazine.
I don't know what JA's formal education background is but he has measured many speakers over the years, presented papers on these measurements and the correlations between them and the sound. He makes measurements with multiple types of test equipment not just AP and he is active at recording. I think he knows what he is doing after all these years. You can disagree with the reviews but don't need to attack the man or the magazine.
I find Mr Atkinson to be a rude and a not very knowledgeable person actually. Just because he knows how to push a few buttons doesn't make him an expert on speakers. He has in the past stuck his foot in his mouth often regarding audio but this time he's insulted the whole DIY community by saying what he did. Just putting out my feelings about the guy. He's not on my Christmas Card list.
Wayne,
I would read the technical section with great attention. Perhaps it was not John who I am thinking of. The technical reviews were often very good to excellent, I would not fault the magazine in that regards. But some of the listening test were terrible, they often were so at odds with the technical specifications it often seemed like the reviews were of two different products.
I would read the technical section with great attention. Perhaps it was not John who I am thinking of. The technical reviews were often very good to excellent, I would not fault the magazine in that regards. But some of the listening test were terrible, they often were so at odds with the technical specifications it often seemed like the reviews were of two different products.
C'mon, Atkinson has heard more speakers and measured more speakers than almost anybody. The guy is very accomplished and skillful at what he does.
I saw the diatribe as a bitch slap against unknown poseurs/aggressors who never heard the speaker in question yet criticized it based on some general theoretical knowledge while JA heard and measured it, and wrote what I would have to grant is a balanced evaluation that took failings and strengths into consideration.
The DIYer struck me as confused and a victim of technological tunnel vision. He was saying "you can't do that" when obviously one can...and with reasonably pleasing results!
This sort of "my way or the highway" showdown happens on this board all the time. There are lots of ways to make a speaker, some fashionable among the techno DIY set and some not. A somewhat resonant cabinet can sound very good whether everybody likes the idea or not, for example.
I am anything but a Stereophile fanboy but here I have to say that JA was being open minded, listened with open ears, took note of several empirical "difficulties" and came up with a well-reasoned synthesis. His conclusion was that the measured shortcomings did not, on the whole, invalidate the design.
JA was also logical and precise in his answers on the measurement questions. He does this every day. The other guy was mixed up or at least his rhetoric was.
Price tag aside, people like these DeVore speakers. Somebody such as JA understands why they are $12k list price while the DIYer only thinks about how thinks he can build something close to them in the garage for $600.
Possibly true, but the DIYer will not have to spend $250 a pair on shipping crates, make little name plates, have every speaker perfectly finished, leave room for international distributors and their dealers to take a cut, pay rent on factory space and advertising, make a modest living off the enterprise, etc.
Yeah, all that adds up a very good set of reasons for DIY but the high end business is what it is. We are not the target audience for the DeVore Oranguatan speakers.
Here, Atkinson was the pro and the anonymous DIYer attackers were out of their element and outclassed. I say he handled it well.
I saw the diatribe as a bitch slap against unknown poseurs/aggressors who never heard the speaker in question yet criticized it based on some general theoretical knowledge while JA heard and measured it, and wrote what I would have to grant is a balanced evaluation that took failings and strengths into consideration.
The DIYer struck me as confused and a victim of technological tunnel vision. He was saying "you can't do that" when obviously one can...and with reasonably pleasing results!
This sort of "my way or the highway" showdown happens on this board all the time. There are lots of ways to make a speaker, some fashionable among the techno DIY set and some not. A somewhat resonant cabinet can sound very good whether everybody likes the idea or not, for example.
I am anything but a Stereophile fanboy but here I have to say that JA was being open minded, listened with open ears, took note of several empirical "difficulties" and came up with a well-reasoned synthesis. His conclusion was that the measured shortcomings did not, on the whole, invalidate the design.
JA was also logical and precise in his answers on the measurement questions. He does this every day. The other guy was mixed up or at least his rhetoric was.
Price tag aside, people like these DeVore speakers. Somebody such as JA understands why they are $12k list price while the DIYer only thinks about how thinks he can build something close to them in the garage for $600.
Possibly true, but the DIYer will not have to spend $250 a pair on shipping crates, make little name plates, have every speaker perfectly finished, leave room for international distributors and their dealers to take a cut, pay rent on factory space and advertising, make a modest living off the enterprise, etc.
Yeah, all that adds up a very good set of reasons for DIY but the high end business is what it is. We are not the target audience for the DeVore Oranguatan speakers.
Here, Atkinson was the pro and the anonymous DIYer attackers were out of their element and outclassed. I say he handled it well.
Joe,
You are correct on every level about the cost of selling into the audiophile market. One of the most expensive cost is the marketing of any of these products. Take a look at the line card for the advertising rates in Stereophile or any other high end magazine and you will see probably one of the highest cost involved in being in this business.
You are correct on every level about the cost of selling into the audiophile market. One of the most expensive cost is the marketing of any of these products. Take a look at the line card for the advertising rates in Stereophile or any other high end magazine and you will see probably one of the highest cost involved in being in this business.
Looks to me like you misread JA. There he's talking about 'claiming authority as an engineer' not 'being an engineer'. Big difference.
Where the real delta between manufacturing cost and retail price comes in is the international distribution scheme. Importers have to bring gear in at a price where both they and dealers can make a reasonable profit, after paying transportation and duty.
I know some Asian distributors might be looking to buy at, say, 35% of list. They will want to buy a quantity then hammer the maker on price.
They also want expensive products because there is more money in it and in hot markets, the expensive stuff is what is selling. Poor struggling folks are poor and struggling everywhere while the excecutive pimps have money to blow on luxuries worldwide.
The manufacturer is not the one making the most off of the product in this scenario.
Sadly, more and more, US and European high end audio companies are dependent on the export market. Just the way it is.
Domestic sales are at a more favorable percentage, but then you have to cover local advertising, etc.
A tough business. This is why knowledgeable DIyers are amateurs and the pros are pros. I think this is what JA was getting at.
Designing and making a pair of decent speakers in the workshop is one thing. Staying alive in high end audio is a whole different universe, especially if you are an honest, sincere, quality minded, and reasonable dude like John DeVore .
I know some Asian distributors might be looking to buy at, say, 35% of list. They will want to buy a quantity then hammer the maker on price.
They also want expensive products because there is more money in it and in hot markets, the expensive stuff is what is selling. Poor struggling folks are poor and struggling everywhere while the excecutive pimps have money to blow on luxuries worldwide.
The manufacturer is not the one making the most off of the product in this scenario.
Sadly, more and more, US and European high end audio companies are dependent on the export market. Just the way it is.
Domestic sales are at a more favorable percentage, but then you have to cover local advertising, etc.
A tough business. This is why knowledgeable DIyers are amateurs and the pros are pros. I think this is what JA was getting at.
Designing and making a pair of decent speakers in the workshop is one thing. Staying alive in high end audio is a whole different universe, especially if you are an honest, sincere, quality minded, and reasonable dude like John DeVore .
You can defend JA all you want but he's an *** in my book. A warty speaker costing $12,000 should not be warty nor should he tell someone they have no right to criticise it just because they aren't a manufacturer or professional designer. JA made several mistakes in describing how that small tweeter could mate with the large woofer using that tiny waveguide and he got corrected by the DIYer and JA got all snooty about it. Anyways this is last I'll comment on it. Some people can do no wrong in some people's minds.
"Someone who sells lots of poorly designed speakers is a professional, not an engineer. ""
LOL
I think JA has an engineering or Physics degree from the UK IIRC.
As some one noted, Stereophile is a commercial concern and its basically designed to help manufacturers sell equipment to well heeled but non technical audiophiles.
And, no matter what JA or any of the reviewers think, theres a host of good designers and good amps here on diyAudio that on a double blind test would do really well against the 'professional' stuff.
I said DB because beauty is in the eye of the beholder . . .
LOL
I think JA has an engineering or Physics degree from the UK IIRC.
As some one noted, Stereophile is a commercial concern and its basically designed to help manufacturers sell equipment to well heeled but non technical audiophiles.
And, no matter what JA or any of the reviewers think, theres a host of good designers and good amps here on diyAudio that on a double blind test would do really well against the 'professional' stuff.
I said DB because beauty is in the eye of the beholder . . .
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The Dood was out of line , JA 's response was merely a stab and yes it's a poorly designed speaker , that doesnt mean people wont like it , no different than some of the ones around here ..
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