I did a bunch of listening level tests once with some friends (about 6 of us) on the average listening level we chose for normal, prolonged listening (say if we were going to sit and listen to an entire album). Oh and btw these tests were done such that the focus was on the music, so this was without any other activities going on. So not really as background music.
We found the optimum listening level people went for on speakers was around 69dBa, due to that being roughly the volume at which the lead singer on the song would be, if they were in the room singing. So people went for a volume that reproduced the voice such that it sounded the most real. Then we repeated, this time seeing what our "loud" listening volume was, as if we were going to turn it up for a couple of our favourite tracks - we opted for around 84 dBa.
The most interesting result was headphone testing. On some average priced "ear buds" (we were using the standard white apple ear buds) I think we opted for 82dBa for general prolonged listening. Obviously much louder than our desired speaker level! Probably due to the reduced quality in sound, so we turned it up to try and "hear more" and experience more of the detail (detail that isn't really there on ear buds, lol). However the point was we set it to a level we thought was comfortable for prolonged periods. Just goes to show that our perceived loudness is up for interpretation. Most people turn up their ear bugs to phenomenal levels and it is really quite scary. Anything above 83dBa has been shown to cause hearing damage if that level is maintained. Obviously you may need like 8 hour exposure at that level (i forget the exact numbers, ill look them up more seriously if people are interested), but once you reach 90dBa that time is cut down to a mere few hours. And people EASILY turn ear buds up to 100dBa, ESPECIALLY when listening in a poor environment such as town or on a bus. It is frightening hearing some people out and about and being able to hear the music they are listening to on their ear buds crystal clear a meter away.. and they are less than a cm away from the source!!! We did another test that showed that an iPad was capable of driving some standard earbuds up to 116dBa!!!!!! An apple mac was able to drive them to 120dBa. It is simply ridiculous why they are designed to give that much power.
What was interesting was doing the test with some open back Sennheiser HD (i forget the exact model) - it was a fairly quality pair, maybe £100. We got listening levels of around 70-75dBa for standard prolonged listening levels. Point being we "thought" we set the volume to roughly the same as the ear buds, as we were trying to achieve a comfortable level for prolonged periods. But what we actually measured was 10dBa LESS. The result shows that listening on large headphones (open or closed back) instead of ear buds can significantly reduce the levels of sound you are exposed to. Which is great for decreasing chances of hearing damage.
Bear in mind this was done listening to music with singing as the main theme, and we are all very aware of the damage prolonged high level listening can do when your reaching high dBa. So blasting sound out is not something we would do for very long. Also I can't remember the exact numbers, but this is what the average roughly came out to be. Anyways, was just the 6 of us. I think that most people would pick listening levels a fair bit more than what we did. It's probably fairly obvious that i'm quite passionate about themes related to hearing loss and preventing it, especially in youngsters who don't realise the damage they're doing.
We found the optimum listening level people went for on speakers was around 69dBa, due to that being roughly the volume at which the lead singer on the song would be, if they were in the room singing. So people went for a volume that reproduced the voice such that it sounded the most real. Then we repeated, this time seeing what our "loud" listening volume was, as if we were going to turn it up for a couple of our favourite tracks - we opted for around 84 dBa.
The most interesting result was headphone testing. On some average priced "ear buds" (we were using the standard white apple ear buds) I think we opted for 82dBa for general prolonged listening. Obviously much louder than our desired speaker level! Probably due to the reduced quality in sound, so we turned it up to try and "hear more" and experience more of the detail (detail that isn't really there on ear buds, lol). However the point was we set it to a level we thought was comfortable for prolonged periods. Just goes to show that our perceived loudness is up for interpretation. Most people turn up their ear bugs to phenomenal levels and it is really quite scary. Anything above 83dBa has been shown to cause hearing damage if that level is maintained. Obviously you may need like 8 hour exposure at that level (i forget the exact numbers, ill look them up more seriously if people are interested), but once you reach 90dBa that time is cut down to a mere few hours. And people EASILY turn ear buds up to 100dBa, ESPECIALLY when listening in a poor environment such as town or on a bus. It is frightening hearing some people out and about and being able to hear the music they are listening to on their ear buds crystal clear a meter away.. and they are less than a cm away from the source!!! We did another test that showed that an iPad was capable of driving some standard earbuds up to 116dBa!!!!!! An apple mac was able to drive them to 120dBa. It is simply ridiculous why they are designed to give that much power.
What was interesting was doing the test with some open back Sennheiser HD (i forget the exact model) - it was a fairly quality pair, maybe £100. We got listening levels of around 70-75dBa for standard prolonged listening levels. Point being we "thought" we set the volume to roughly the same as the ear buds, as we were trying to achieve a comfortable level for prolonged periods. But what we actually measured was 10dBa LESS. The result shows that listening on large headphones (open or closed back) instead of ear buds can significantly reduce the levels of sound you are exposed to. Which is great for decreasing chances of hearing damage.
Bear in mind this was done listening to music with singing as the main theme, and we are all very aware of the damage prolonged high level listening can do when your reaching high dBa. So blasting sound out is not something we would do for very long. Also I can't remember the exact numbers, but this is what the average roughly came out to be. Anyways, was just the 6 of us. I think that most people would pick listening levels a fair bit more than what we did. It's probably fairly obvious that i'm quite passionate about themes related to hearing loss and preventing it, especially in youngsters who don't realise the damage they're doing.
Easy, we had a digital spl meter 
Just put the ear buds up to the tip of the meter, pretty much identical to what your ear would be subject to. And for the headphones we did the same, the actual dome is only a cm or so across, so can put it right up to the tip of the meter. Not sure if the enclosure the headphones make around your ear would make much difference to spl... probably negligible. There was no background noise either, so having the enclosure block out background noise wasn't relevant.
Just put the ear buds up to the tip of the meter, pretty much identical to what your ear would be subject to. And for the headphones we did the same, the actual dome is only a cm or so across, so can put it right up to the tip of the meter. Not sure if the enclosure the headphones make around your ear would make much difference to spl... probably negligible. There was no background noise either, so having the enclosure block out background noise wasn't relevant.Love to hear from others about lower level listening dynamics. What are peoples opinions regarding speaker and amplifier designs related to this (interesting white paper link; see post #9). As always, differing opinions, from my experience with the systems that I've owned over the years, in every case, it seems like more volume, up to a certain point, sounds better. Maybe these systems havent been overly balanced???
Hoping to enjoy ...hear... the music for many more years. At age 55 it seems like I should keep that volume down! I just never wanting to give up ANY of that beautiful music.
Other detailed threads on this?
Thanks!!!
Marko
Hoping to enjoy ...hear... the music for many more years. At age 55 it seems like I should keep that volume down! I just never wanting to give up ANY of that beautiful music.
Other detailed threads on this?
Thanks!!!
Marko
I listen at the level that I like (and that has nothing to do with the "realistic" level). also, if I feel that it makes someone else uncomfortable, I turn it down. if I know someone else (be it cohabitant or neighbor) is bothered by the volume I can't continue enjoying the music in the same way.
I think that too much is made of this "realistic level" thing. I'm not very much into classical but I once read that many parts were played very differently 200 or 300 years ago. so much for the "what the composer intended" argument.
I can think of many songs with partly indistinguishable lyrics. I (and likely most people) would "invent" the missing parts. I also remember the surprise when reading the original lyrics I'm simply not interested in perceiving what the composer/director/musician intended me too. if the sensation is good/better, I don't care. if it's a song about love and I think it's about a starship and I like it, where's the problem? this is why we enjoy music, it conveys feelings in a way that makes it possible to interpret them in a way that resonates with something personal.
just so with levels. so what if the sound of an instrument was supposed to knock me off the sofa? maybe I don't want it to.
I simply don't see how some people think there's such a thing as a "correct level".
I think that too much is made of this "realistic level" thing. I'm not very much into classical but I once read that many parts were played very differently 200 or 300 years ago. so much for the "what the composer intended" argument.
I can think of many songs with partly indistinguishable lyrics. I (and likely most people) would "invent" the missing parts. I also remember the surprise when reading the original lyrics
I'm simply not interested in perceiving what the composer/director/musician intended me too. if the sensation is good/better, I don't care. if it's a song about love and I think it's about a starship and I like it, where's the problem? this is why we enjoy music, it conveys feelings in a way that makes it possible to interpret them in a way that resonates with something personal.just so with levels. so what if the sound of an instrument was supposed to knock me off the sofa? maybe I don't want it to.
I simply don't see how some people think there's such a thing as a "correct level".
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I don't think it's all about being knocked off the sofa.
I think they are implying "realism", due to the instruments etc. sounding real.
"Real" drums are not quiet and are also "felt", "not just "heard".
Acoustic guitars etc. interact with the room, fine decaying details, attack and timbre are lost at lower sound levels.
A freight train can be felt as much as it is heard, even at a distance. Without some level of power and bass, it won't feel like a freight train at all, it will sound like a weak impression.
That being said, I don't listen to "realistic" levels either.
I don't want my ears to ring if someone discharges a firearm indoors on film.
I think they are implying "realism", due to the instruments etc. sounding real.
"Real" drums are not quiet and are also "felt", "not just "heard".
Acoustic guitars etc. interact with the room, fine decaying details, attack and timbre are lost at lower sound levels.
A freight train can be felt as much as it is heard, even at a distance. Without some level of power and bass, it won't feel like a freight train at all, it will sound like a weak impression.
That being said, I don't listen to "realistic" levels either.
I don't want my ears to ring if someone discharges a firearm indoors on film.
Depends on the mood I'm in, the type of music, the instruments in the music, and if there is anyone sleeping. I just want to listen to the music, but other times, well gee... you just have to hear that little nuance in the background and the only way is at near window cracking levels while being aware that you still want to keep your hearing intact.
i like to listen loud not like at the conductors position but like being in the middle of the audience/room
A particular group of people is highly concerned by this notion of "ideal standard level" : the production and mixing specialists. They are naturally aware that the ear has not a constant sensibility when the level changes. At low levels, we hear better the mid band, aka the speech band or telephone band. A statistical representation of this is the Fletcher Munson curves :
This is also what some producers say about the "correct level" :
This is for working people. For us hobbyists, there are also some others factors.
Everybody can know that a big system with very low transducers induced distorsions, with a good FR linearity ( extended very low and very high) can be listened at dangerous levels while the targeted listener will comment this as "natural, soft, not aggressive...". Chilling experience.
Pano was also evoking the overpowering room concept. I am not documented about this but I totally agree, in any room there's a limit of clarity vs level.
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This is also what some producers say about the "correct level" :
This is for working people. For us hobbyists, there are also some others factors.
Everybody can know that a big system with very low transducers induced distorsions, with a good FR linearity ( extended very low and very high) can be listened at dangerous levels while the targeted listener will comment this as "natural, soft, not aggressive...". Chilling experience.
Pano was also evoking the overpowering room concept. I am not documented about this but I totally agree, in any room there's a limit of clarity vs level.
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I tend to think the listening levels seem to sound best at "live" levels. That presupposes one knows what level is suited to what type of music....The wildcard I believe is matching room-size with venue size....That would make a orchestra not possible within the confines of your listening room. I once heard some orchestral thru a pair of Klipschorns in a rather giant listening room, some 35 Ft wide by 25 Ft deep.......it sounded "right". With mixes by the engineer, sound "images" are artificial(Piano left, Bass guitar right, Lead off-center left, etc.).....With zillion track 'Rock Concerts' those high SPL levels really over-whelm our rather small listening rooms. Other simple Jazz quartets "fit" the room just fine.
_____________________________________________________Rick..........
_____________________________________________________Rick..........
Finally worked out my reply to this.
My "listening" system (see my sig.) I play at various levels according to mood, but I doubt it passes 90dB very often.
I also occasionally plug my iPod into my bass amplifier.
This is (at the moment) a 300w head powering 4x10" speakers, one of which I'd consider pretty much full-range (has a whizzer that makes it go usefully high).
With some tweaking of the eq, it sounds reasonably good. Not as detailed as my listening system but...
It's loud.
Turn it up and it just gets louder, staying wonderfully clean.
It carries on getting louder until one of the drivers (for they are each different) bottoms out. Back it off slightly from there, and enjoy.
I'd expect the maximum cone movement to be around 7mm one-way.
Taking a lower cut-off at 40Hz, that's 118dB (then add room gain for pressure mode), quarter space.
Sufficient, I suspect, for a teenager's bedroom system.
Of course, if I drop the low bass on the graphic eq, it will go louder still. Try 130dB at 80Hz.
Chris
Edit - these are theoretical numbers, I'm aware of the hearing damage etc etc, and wear isolating earphones during band practice.
My "listening" system (see my sig.) I play at various levels according to mood, but I doubt it passes 90dB very often.
I also occasionally plug my iPod into my bass amplifier.
This is (at the moment) a 300w head powering 4x10" speakers, one of which I'd consider pretty much full-range (has a whizzer that makes it go usefully high).
With some tweaking of the eq, it sounds reasonably good. Not as detailed as my listening system but...
It's loud.
Turn it up and it just gets louder, staying wonderfully clean.
It carries on getting louder until one of the drivers (for they are each different) bottoms out. Back it off slightly from there, and enjoy.
I'd expect the maximum cone movement to be around 7mm one-way.
Taking a lower cut-off at 40Hz, that's 118dB (then add room gain for pressure mode), quarter space.
Sufficient, I suspect, for a teenager's bedroom system.
Of course, if I drop the low bass on the graphic eq, it will go louder still. Try 130dB at 80Hz.
Chris
Edit - these are theoretical numbers, I'm aware of the hearing damage etc etc, and wear isolating earphones during band practice.
a.wayne...
Your prospective is interesting. I say this, not to question you, only to hear more. Why...because I'm interested in knowing more about speakers, and speaker/amplifier relationships that sound better at lower listening levels. Hope you don’t mind that some might not agree with you. It would be nice to hear more about what you have to say and the type of system(s) that you prefer.
Thank you.
Your prospective is interesting. I say this, not to question you, only to hear more. Why...because I'm interested in knowing more about speakers, and speaker/amplifier relationships that sound better at lower listening levels. Hope you don’t mind that some might not agree with you. It would be nice to hear more about what you have to say and the type of system(s) that you prefer.
Thank you.
Depends on a few thing:
Music during daytime hours: ~ 95dBa
Music in the evening: ~ 90dBa
Movies: as loud as my next door neibors wil allow me to
90dba din is pretty loud, too loud for prolong listening ...
Hello,
I thought i had explained it earlier, what would you like to discuss...?
As my room treatments get better I find that I can listen louder and louder. Maybe nit a good thing - but I'm half deaf anyway.....
There must be some studies on subjective levels in different rooms. I'd love to read more about it.
Too much damping makes the room too resistive , it will kill the dynamics and force you to raise the level and too little is the opposite. I may suggest you are suffering from too big a speaker for the room , not from the levels. We have in the past achieved high DB's in small control rooms, the key was correct speaker size for the space ...
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