I largely agree. I always think that if there are real "timing" issues, it should be possible to put a decent microphone at the listening position and record the difference
Nige, I don't know what you mean when you say "properly set up".
In both cases, the power amplification was using original Quad 405 amps, set up as suggested in the owner manual.
One room measures about 4.5 by 6 meters, or 27 sq.m and is 3.2 m high; the other was a pre WWII room, at least 7 m long, at least 5 m wide and 4.2 m high. Both had sparse furniture and both had been acoustically treated (how well, I cannot know).
We need to define what we mean when we say "deep bass". For me, "deep bass" means 40 Hz and below, and regarding the fundamental tone, not its second harmonic.
I'm not absolutely sure, but I seem to remember that a normally tuned bass guitar doesn't go below around 60 Hz anyway. Below that, we have a few grand piano notes, the tympani and of course, The Bassmeister, church organs, which I am told manage as low as 16 Hz in Ulm. The way they kicked my kidnies around, I'm willing to believe that, I sat there for two solid hours unable to leave - unbelievable sound.
In my view, AR 10Pi did the bass lines more convincingly than the ESL. Probably their best ever acoustic suspension speaker, along with AR 11, it's cheaper cousin. AR9 was way bigger and more expensive, but somehow, it just failed to impress. And I am a loyal-to-death AR fan from yore.
Anyway, AR 10Pi was by no means a cheap speaker, but was still quite a bit less expensive than the ESL.
I repeat - please do not misunderstand me, I am NOT saying the ESL was by any means a lacking speaker, I am saying it was not as good as it was touted to be, despite some of its strong and commendable traits.
In both cases, the power amplification was using original Quad 405 amps, set up as suggested in the owner manual.
One room measures about 4.5 by 6 meters, or 27 sq.m and is 3.2 m high; the other was a pre WWII room, at least 7 m long, at least 5 m wide and 4.2 m high. Both had sparse furniture and both had been acoustically treated (how well, I cannot know).
We need to define what we mean when we say "deep bass". For me, "deep bass" means 40 Hz and below, and regarding the fundamental tone, not its second harmonic.
I'm not absolutely sure, but I seem to remember that a normally tuned bass guitar doesn't go below around 60 Hz anyway. Below that, we have a few grand piano notes, the tympani and of course, The Bassmeister, church organs, which I am told manage as low as 16 Hz in Ulm. The way they kicked my kidnies around, I'm willing to believe that, I sat there for two solid hours unable to leave - unbelievable sound.
In my view, AR 10Pi did the bass lines more convincingly than the ESL. Probably their best ever acoustic suspension speaker, along with AR 11, it's cheaper cousin. AR9 was way bigger and more expensive, but somehow, it just failed to impress. And I am a loyal-to-death AR fan from yore.
Anyway, AR 10Pi was by no means a cheap speaker, but was still quite a bit less expensive than the ESL.
I repeat - please do not misunderstand me, I am NOT saying the ESL was by any means a lacking speaker, I am saying it was not as good as it was touted to be, despite some of its strong and commendable traits.
Quad 405 , not their best moment . Inverting phase also which few knew . More of a mini PA amp .
Most program material will struggle to have much below 100 Hz , espeailly in the days of LP . Ironically vinyl always seems to have good bass .
The use of a sub woofer is mostly about power handling and the ability to have very loud bass .
As for first class source . I put together when very young a sound system using some £100 speakers ( KEF clones , Dalesford ) , Sony TA1055 ( nothing special ) and an AKG microphone . I built a pre amp . It was to put the sound of a jazz band into another room at a Hotel . The results knocked me sideways . It truly was hard to tell it wasn't the band when going from that room to the one with the band performing . I had never had sound like that from those speakers before or after . Sorry , source matters and far more than most would even begin to guess . Seldom afterwards regardless of who , what , or where have I heard it so real . That was 38 years ago .
A friend was given some 63's . She had £750 for a complete system . Rega P3 turntable , Yamaha amp , Yamaha CD player . With CD is was abysmal ( no , it was worse than that ) . Then the shock of my life , with the Rega it was more than half decent . The Yamaha amp was not bad at all ( 520 ? ) . The lady asked me if all CD was that bad . Frankly yes was my answer . Since then CD has improved .
Most program material will struggle to have much below 100 Hz , espeailly in the days of LP . Ironically vinyl always seems to have good bass .
The use of a sub woofer is mostly about power handling and the ability to have very loud bass .
As for first class source . I put together when very young a sound system using some £100 speakers ( KEF clones , Dalesford ) , Sony TA1055 ( nothing special ) and an AKG microphone . I built a pre amp . It was to put the sound of a jazz band into another room at a Hotel . The results knocked me sideways . It truly was hard to tell it wasn't the band when going from that room to the one with the band performing . I had never had sound like that from those speakers before or after . Sorry , source matters and far more than most would even begin to guess . Seldom afterwards regardless of who , what , or where have I heard it so real . That was 38 years ago .
A friend was given some 63's . She had £750 for a complete system . Rega P3 turntable , Yamaha amp , Yamaha CD player . With CD is was abysmal ( no , it was worse than that ) . Then the shock of my life , with the Rega it was more than half decent . The Yamaha amp was not bad at all ( 520 ? ) . The lady asked me if all CD was that bad . Frankly yes was my answer . Since then CD has improved .
And what is your definition of "improves"? It sounds better!
(i.e. a circular argument)
It's what I was saying yesterday. People create a 'narrative' about what they are doing. To one person, changing the cable is "reducing distortion". To another, doing exactly the same thing is "cutting down interference" while to another it is "improving the sound stage". They all assume that it is an "improvement" and they confirm their assumption with a subjective, sighted listening test. They can even re-assure us that the improvement also works long term, and that they can swap back and hear the old offensive "distortion" again thus 'proving' it is real but it's just words..... words.... .......
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Could you elaborate more on this? It had (has) a very interesting design that might raise a few eyebrows (it passes the signal through an LM318 op amp I think) , but are there any problems with its measurements? If not, but it can be shown to be unambiguously awful sounding in blind tests, it would be very interesting to work out why. Strange thing is, to its devotees it's the best thing since sliced bread and still sells for a decent price.
I have heard many ultra low distortion amps that are vibrant . Perreaux comes to mind .It should be dull if low distortion does that , it isn't . I have heard many low distortion amps that sound odd ( Radford transistor ) . PSU is my doubt if so . The Radofrd would be OK into a reactive load so unlikely to be unstable . Some Sony amps were not the best .
The dreaded NE 5534 is possibly blamed mostly for the company it kept . Many designers used it and the bad sound was associated with the chip . As a sound engineer told me . 90% of the audiophiles most treasured recordings came out of 5534's . In his company it was possible to go through 90 of them and still get a reasonable sound ( SSL ) !
Take the 5534 as a mini power amp . Hear it sound from good to dreadful . Some will give a list of op amps that beat it almost like a court of law where the 5534 is some kind of criminal . All I will say is those who can not get a 5534 to sound OK will not do better with other chips . They might actually , lady luck does that sometimes . It isn't engineering when that happens , just forgiving qualities of the op amp .
Timing I would say is simply by ear adjusting the bandwidth . Slightly less bass might help a modest PSU . Often the amp will measure fine either way . An amp with a vibrant sound and good timing will never need to have distortion or worse . Looking at Hi Fi World magazine seldom did a great sounding amplifier have bad measurements . The usual comment " a great sounding amp with great set of measurements " .
I'm not sure whether by 'primary sound' you mean the actual music that was made with no artificial extras, or you mean the sound with any reverberation or other natural ambience removes. If the former, that is exactly what I would expect from any serious 'audiophile' label.fas42 said:
It is difficult to conceive that an 'audiophile' label will add serious treble cut to a recording. It is quite easy to conceive that other labels will add a treble boost to their recordings, which creates a false expectation of lots of treble. We then miss it when it is missing, as inded it should be. I assume no spectral measurements were made, which could be compared with other recordings?
Your comments on things you have heard are helpful, but I suspect they tell us much more about you and your hearing preferences than they do about the systems/recordings you report on.
Sorry, the word 'vibrant' to me is now a word used by estate agents to describe the more dangerous parts of our cities. The London suburb where I grew up is now 'vibrant'; to me it just seems scruffy, noisy and somewhat threatening. People I know who still live there are now very cautious about venturing out on foot after dark. 40 years ago it was not 'vibrant' but a much nicer place to live.nigel pearson said:
The 606 put a lot of that right . Parallel bridged 405's were well liked . My friend John says the need to impress the PA market might have caused people like me to like it less . He says being bomb proof was highly attractive to the installers . I use a 303 which I feel was slightly the better design . A doctor Ron Smith of Harwell showed me work he did on a 405 . He completely balanced the bridge and showed how distortion was virtually zero if so . Like a fool I lost his notes . He felt that Quad never made a version of the amp anywhere near as good as it could have been . He strongly felt the concept totally valid . 306 was not my cup of tea either . 606 I loved .
The 405 is not my favourite amp . That said I would have no problem using one .
Maybe this will be worth a read .
Quad 405-2 upgrades
I have one claim to fame . I had dinner at the Quad canteen . Just like being at school with identical dinner ladies . Happy days . ( I was collecting some ELS's ) . I was met by Ray Church-house , repair engineer was Geoff Popple .
Quad 405-2 upgrades
I have one claim to fame . I had dinner at the Quad canteen . Just like being at school with identical dinner ladies . Happy days . ( I was collecting some ELS's ) . I was met by Ray Church-house , repair engineer was Geoff Popple .
You are saying Peter Walker's recommendation for using his own power amps with his own loudspeaker are all wrong and should be disregarded?
When it appeared, pages and pages were written on 405's lacking tolerance for speaker loads, and I distinctly remembe Peter Walker stating that the amp was primarily made to drive his ESLs. It struck me as odd at the time.
I don't know on what you base that statement, but I couldn't disagree more regarding modern pop music.
This flies in the face of your own comment above, Nige. What power handling of what if there's little below 100 Hz? Even the LS 3/5 will manage 100 Hz somehow.
Who ever and how denied that source was important? Who in their right mind would? If the source is poor, then anything after it cannot help sounding poor. You are knocking on an open door here, Nige.
The standard Red Book CD is a VERY good source when applied as it can and should be. Whoever disbelieves, just play almost any (well, most) Deutsche Gramophon CDs from the 1985-1990 era. At least as good as, if not even better, than Decca Phase 4 Stereo recordings. Or Enigma's first CD. Or Abba's Greatest Hits (Polydor 314 517 007-2) to experience what plain old 16-bit CD can do - when done properly. You'll have trouble finding LPs which can match that.
For bass capability test, run Blue Man Group's first album. There's a passage on it when one of them hits a drum with a diameter of 8 feet - hear your amp's power supplies running dry for wham, or a gut shaking bass if not running dry.
Nige, VERY few British made speakers will do better than some pseudo-bass, and those that do are built almostexactly as American speakers. Meaning they will be large floor standing units, with a 12 inch bass, not some dinky little toy 6.5 inch "bass/mid" driver mounted on a matchbox sized enclosure.
If you want big sound, you need big speakers. Period. Speakers like Celestion Ditton 44 or 66, Spendor BC3, the original three section KEF reference, etc. No amount of auto fellatio by the British press will make us believe otherwise.
This will not help us fail to note how long ago the Great British Swindle began.
Come on, Nige, what the hell kind of products they are if you need to upgrade them before you even unpacked them?
Regarding Cyrus and Naim, to get the real sound you need to buy add-on external power supplies? Power supplies, for God's sake? If so, than what are the ones included inside for?
That may be good business to them, but to me, that's a thinly disguised daylight robbery. Here we are, making the best audio in the world, but to get there, you need to buy add-on boxes No.1, 2 and 3, spending tons of money in the process. While those big, brash Yanks sell you big boxes with massive power supplies, the idiots, missing a golden opportunity to cash in on you.
And God forbid than anyone should start adding it all up and notice that you could have bought an amp from say Parasound or Adcom, offering the same and more as your dinky little boxes at half the price.
I do think the 405 and the ESL may not find their best moments when partnered together . The KEF 104 was good with the 405 . Some how they slotted together . The 104's needed 100 watts at times .
100 Hz bass . Basically cutting lathes are limited in how much bass they can cut . As I said it is ironic how good bass is usually when vinyl . It suggests what we think of as bass is 100 Hz + . As you say on paper CD should solve all of this . It didn't and was surprisingly poor compared with the humble broadcasting digital . The CD player I sold to my friend was typical of it's time . Flat and harsh , being Yamaha it was reasonably correct in tonality .
The great British swindle as you put it was mostly conducted by real gentlemen who I suspect swindled less than mostly any people I ever met in my life . Mission were generous to a fault with customers . If only banks were so upright .
Not any anger in saying that . Truth is the bigger swindle is buying something that would have no value 10 years later . OK that might be the false values that marketing produces . Still it's nice to know the Naim system can be cashed in if times get hard .
ATC speakers are British . No one every complains they don't deliver .
Anyway . This thread had nearly died . I make no apology for getting people talking .
100 Hz bass . Basically cutting lathes are limited in how much bass they can cut . As I said it is ironic how good bass is usually when vinyl . It suggests what we think of as bass is 100 Hz + . As you say on paper CD should solve all of this . It didn't and was surprisingly poor compared with the humble broadcasting digital . The CD player I sold to my friend was typical of it's time . Flat and harsh , being Yamaha it was reasonably correct in tonality .
The great British swindle as you put it was mostly conducted by real gentlemen who I suspect swindled less than mostly any people I ever met in my life . Mission were generous to a fault with customers . If only banks were so upright .
Not any anger in saying that . Truth is the bigger swindle is buying something that would have no value 10 years later . OK that might be the false values that marketing produces . Still it's nice to know the Naim system can be cashed in if times get hard .
ATC speakers are British . No one every complains they don't deliver .
Anyway . This thread had nearly died . I make no apology for getting people talking .
Nige, I can only applaud and support anyone making a fair trade. I readily agree that my view of add-on things like power supplies is very subjective, and I obviously consider it to be a swindle, no matter how they whitewash it. To me, it represents a hidden cost. I would have much preferred them to create two separate models - that would be above board for me.
As things stand, to me what they are doing is equivalent to selling someone a V12 600 HP Ferrari on bicycle wheels and only after he has bought it you tell him he needs to plonk down another 10 grand for proper wheels and tyres.
I admit my ideas of fair trade are TOTALLY outdated in these days of whizz hit and run kids, selling whatever made to be "in" for the next two seasons. I prefer things made to last the next 20 years, and I am prepared to pay for such quality.
And it's not like the Brits don't know what I'm talking about. Take a look if you can at how the old Spendor BC3 was made - in the best Britisih tradition, made to last a lifetime. No wonder they appear of e-bay at the rate of wisdom teeth. No-one in their right mind would want to sell a pair.
Or, more down to earth, remember how the Armstrong units were made. Or even the humble Goodmans speakers, never mind their low price, their build quality did them proud, and rightly so. Remember their Dimension 8 4-way speaker?
As for value later, I'm afraid most items made today will have no real value in 10 years' time. Many might not even live that long. Today's world is based on fashon, not value.
As things stand, to me what they are doing is equivalent to selling someone a V12 600 HP Ferrari on bicycle wheels and only after he has bought it you tell him he needs to plonk down another 10 grand for proper wheels and tyres.
I admit my ideas of fair trade are TOTALLY outdated in these days of whizz hit and run kids, selling whatever made to be "in" for the next two seasons. I prefer things made to last the next 20 years, and I am prepared to pay for such quality.
And it's not like the Brits don't know what I'm talking about. Take a look if you can at how the old Spendor BC3 was made - in the best Britisih tradition, made to last a lifetime. No wonder they appear of e-bay at the rate of wisdom teeth. No-one in their right mind would want to sell a pair.
Or, more down to earth, remember how the Armstrong units were made. Or even the humble Goodmans speakers, never mind their low price, their build quality did them proud, and rightly so. Remember their Dimension 8 4-way speaker?
As for value later, I'm afraid most items made today will have no real value in 10 years' time. Many might not even live that long. Today's world is based on fashon, not value.
Pretty easy to explain ... it sounds more like the real thing, less like the artificial presentation of typical hifi; you feel more strongly that the people who created the sounds were real human beings motivated to play the music recorded - strangely enough this also works for what most consider ambient music 'twiddling', you "get" what the person who created the sounds was trying to achieve - in every sense you get more of the spontaneous pleasure that caused you to get into this hobby in the first place!
The easiest and simplest test is to put on old, "poor" recordings with strong single voice content, spoken and low key singing: the better the system the more the vocal sounds completely natural, believable - and less like a comic strip version of a voice ...
I haven't attempted to analyse precisely what was done, but subjectively a large degree of natural ambience was excluded - probably from very close miking, and no mix in from the hall.
Audiophile labels are quite paranoid about string tone, I have several where their techniques have dulled the sheen almost to the point of non-existence - I believe, because they know that many high end hifi's frequently make a mess of the reproduction of such, they emit a shrieking, ear-splitting racket. I have numerous DGG, Decca, Philips, Hyperion, etc, to directly compare with, with beautiful, soaring string tone when the playback is in order. And, just to be on the safe side,
, I seek live renditions of violin, a busker is ideal - I sidle up as close as possible to the player, to get a full 'hit' of the sound - I'm pretty happy with what I can get from playback ...
The really amusing aspect of this is that the sound of the 606 is completely dictated by relatively ordinary opamps; it is essentially a chip amp with power booster stage. It was used by Martin Colloms as a reference amp for some time, he liked it a lot ...
The really amusing aspect of this is that the sound of the 606 is completely dictated by relatively ordinary opamps; it is essentially a chip amp with power booster stage. It was used by Martin Colloms as a reference amp for some time, he liked it a lot ...
Why is that "really amusing"? What is a "relatively ordinary" op-amp?
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