Wayne, I don't see where you could hear any decent German Hi-Fi in say the 70ies or the 80ies, because only a few of their companies were even represented in the USA. Consequently, the US market was TOTALLY dominated by the Japanese, who pushed everyone else out of business, or bought them out on occasion.
As an example, Kirsaetter. An old company which has always been in the forefront of technology in general, they were making 100W/8 Ohm FM only receivers when just a handful of Japs made it over the 60W/8 Ohm mark.
They made preceivers to be coupled with their active loudspeakers in the early 70ies, way before most others had even heard about the concept.
Look at their circuitry from the early 70ies and you would be forgiven for thinking it was from the early 90ies.
These people were the cream of the crop, no other European, Japanese or even American manufacturer could stand up to them. But at a price, of course, there is no such thing as a cheap Jaguar or Bentley or Rolls-Royce.
Since they made audio only, and no washing machines or bathtubs like many Japanese manufacturers, and most important, no TV sets, as was very much "in" at the time, they simply could not match the Japanese companies' advertising budgets, this in addition to the usual German inability to sell, caused primarily by their beliefe that quality goods will sell themselves elsewhere just as in Germany. It simply wasn't so.
Fortunately, they did survive, and still make incredible loudspeakers even today, but no electronics any more. A pity.
Another reason was that the US market was THE primary market for the Japanese. Quite a few Japanese models were made for the US only, and are consequently not well known in Europe at all.
In return, US products simply made zero inroads into the Japanese market, with the exception of JBL, a company which somehow hit paydirt in Japan like all the rest of the US audio industry put together. Japs will buy only Japanese, period, they are a closed market by culture, not by any administrative barriers. This was further promoted by the fact that each and every Japanese manufacturer had separate models for Japan only, which were never exported in any way whatsoever, not even rebadged.
Over here, it was a completely different game. Sure, the Japanese were here as well, but they did nowhere near as well as in USA, for two reasons: the first is that they never really understood the European customers, not until the late 90ies, by when it was far too late, and the second is that they faced an incomparably tougher competion in Europe, because everybody had their own audio industry and the local markets did the same as the Japanese market - they preferred locally made products.
As far as I am aware, only three overseas companies figured this out and adjusted: Sony, Kenwood/Trio and Harman/Kardon. HK is to this very day a very serious player in Germany, highly respected, as is Sony, while Kenwood/Trio is mostly gone, down to a few AV receivers and some car audio. All three actually offered, at one time or another, special models just for the German market.
You probably wonder how come the German market had such a powerful influence on the rest of Europe, figuring it's probably because it was the biggest single market. That would be true, but that's the least of it - as we speak, there are around 6 million Turkish, around 1 million Greek, around 0.8 million Serbian, etc., migrant workers in Germany. When these people go back home, many of them to small, poor villages, carrying a Grundig portable audio set, which actually sounds reasonably good and way better than its Japanese counterparts, everybody remembers the name of the manufacturers. Eventually, they will save up to buy a TV set, and whose do you think it will be? Grundig's, of course, or, failing that, it simply MUST be German made.
Just like cars - even today, Japanese manufacturers are making small inroads locally, Toyota is doing reasonably well because it has a few micro models, but if you want real quality, you buy German. No big Toyotas around, just a few diehards. No Mazdas, no Nissans, no Subarus, etc to speak of. But VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz - loads of them. All imported second hand from Germany, even the French, once strong locally, have been almost ousted. Yet all of them, and more, are locally represented.
As are McIntosh, Levinson and Krell, with Accuphase running hard. But, being a poor market, their "representation" is in fact unofficial, and worked from an apartment, on direct order only.
As an example, Kirsaetter. An old company which has always been in the forefront of technology in general, they were making 100W/8 Ohm FM only receivers when just a handful of Japs made it over the 60W/8 Ohm mark.
They made preceivers to be coupled with their active loudspeakers in the early 70ies, way before most others had even heard about the concept.
Look at their circuitry from the early 70ies and you would be forgiven for thinking it was from the early 90ies.
These people were the cream of the crop, no other European, Japanese or even American manufacturer could stand up to them. But at a price, of course, there is no such thing as a cheap Jaguar or Bentley or Rolls-Royce.
Since they made audio only, and no washing machines or bathtubs like many Japanese manufacturers, and most important, no TV sets, as was very much "in" at the time, they simply could not match the Japanese companies' advertising budgets, this in addition to the usual German inability to sell, caused primarily by their beliefe that quality goods will sell themselves elsewhere just as in Germany. It simply wasn't so.
Fortunately, they did survive, and still make incredible loudspeakers even today, but no electronics any more. A pity.
Another reason was that the US market was THE primary market for the Japanese. Quite a few Japanese models were made for the US only, and are consequently not well known in Europe at all.
In return, US products simply made zero inroads into the Japanese market, with the exception of JBL, a company which somehow hit paydirt in Japan like all the rest of the US audio industry put together. Japs will buy only Japanese, period, they are a closed market by culture, not by any administrative barriers. This was further promoted by the fact that each and every Japanese manufacturer had separate models for Japan only, which were never exported in any way whatsoever, not even rebadged.
Over here, it was a completely different game. Sure, the Japanese were here as well, but they did nowhere near as well as in USA, for two reasons: the first is that they never really understood the European customers, not until the late 90ies, by when it was far too late, and the second is that they faced an incomparably tougher competion in Europe, because everybody had their own audio industry and the local markets did the same as the Japanese market - they preferred locally made products.
As far as I am aware, only three overseas companies figured this out and adjusted: Sony, Kenwood/Trio and Harman/Kardon. HK is to this very day a very serious player in Germany, highly respected, as is Sony, while Kenwood/Trio is mostly gone, down to a few AV receivers and some car audio. All three actually offered, at one time or another, special models just for the German market.
You probably wonder how come the German market had such a powerful influence on the rest of Europe, figuring it's probably because it was the biggest single market. That would be true, but that's the least of it - as we speak, there are around 6 million Turkish, around 1 million Greek, around 0.8 million Serbian, etc., migrant workers in Germany. When these people go back home, many of them to small, poor villages, carrying a Grundig portable audio set, which actually sounds reasonably good and way better than its Japanese counterparts, everybody remembers the name of the manufacturers. Eventually, they will save up to buy a TV set, and whose do you think it will be? Grundig's, of course, or, failing that, it simply MUST be German made.
Just like cars - even today, Japanese manufacturers are making small inroads locally, Toyota is doing reasonably well because it has a few micro models, but if you want real quality, you buy German. No big Toyotas around, just a few diehards. No Mazdas, no Nissans, no Subarus, etc to speak of. But VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz - loads of them. All imported second hand from Germany, even the French, once strong locally, have been almost ousted. Yet all of them, and more, are locally represented.
As are McIntosh, Levinson and Krell, with Accuphase running hard. But, being a poor market, their "representation" is in fact unofficial, and worked from an apartment, on direct order only.
It was certainly not my intention to insult or belittle anyone, least of all the Japanese. While I am no lover of their audio products in general, I have much respect for their prowess in both making and marketing it.
The problem was purely my laziness to type out the word "Japanese" so many times, nothing else.
Kalimera,
Given that I spend at least 10 days every year on my summer vacation in Greece, you really don't need to tell me that, I can see that for myself.
I did not want to imply that Japanese products in general, audio included, were not reliable, but what I am saying is that while they are reliable and generally reasonably to very well made (depending on their price point), they are still not on par with European cars. If you think I am overdoing it, do take a look at Germany's Auto, Motor und Sport site, they do a lot of objective measuring. In general, Japanese cars lag behind their European competitors in terms of exhaust residuals and fuel consumption. While the difference is not spectacular, it is there, and it is there consistently and across the board.
As for audio products, I would say they are about there in terms of reliability, on a par with European and American products, in terms of longevity, but in my view, they still lag behind in terms of sound quality. This is, of course, a very personal view.
Would you buy a Japanese bouzuki?
Even if made by Yamaha, which has been making musical instruments since 1860?Wayne, it all depends on which models you compared with which models. As a certified fan of Studer/reVox gear, I'll be the first to admit that their integrated amps were not their best efforts, and I've had them all at one time or another. However, if you go that tuner site (I don't have the link just now), you will find that their model B760 digital tuner was placed quite a few places above the first American offering, and the site is maintained by Americans.
Say what you will, but more studios had Studer tape machines that either Ampex, MCI, Crown or whatever - which is not to say these were poor machines, I worked with a mean MCI machine and know full well it was a monster, with outstanding build quality.
In the semi-professional arena, the venerable reVox A77 was King, it simply outsold eveybody else because it was a true KISS concept in which only performance mattered. Even its specifications were more stringent than everybody else's in that general price class. And I do believe there was never another tape machine which proved itself as reliable.
However, they made a design mistake with the newer B77 model, a blunder I find hard to believe to this day. I know this first hand because two of my close friends, both electrical engineers, bought that model. The old A77 was always praised for its instantaneous start up with no bump attached on the tape, whicl the B77 had a dire problem with its start-up. For several years, Studer/reVox sent both of them small bags of parts (resistors, capacitors) claiming that this would resolve the problem - but it didn't. After 5 or 6 years of dancing, both gave up and took the middle road - they put it in PAUSE before hitting REC. Even that didn't completely resolve the problem, but it did make it much less noticable.
It took the next model, PR99, to get back on the track, but by then, tape machines were quickly leaving this world, which had become digital.
Definitely a black spot on Studer's otherwise brilliant record. And one which I believe cost them.
On other fronts, I would very much like to hear of an American power amp with the same or similar build quality as Studer's A740. Damn expensive, yes, but it was built like very, VERY few others. Ever.
You say Grundig - let me ask, have ever seen or used Grundig's 1000 model tape machine? I have, and it was a killer, its only failing being that it came too late to make any real difference.
Have you tried Grundig's early 80ies preamps? Or integrated amps, such as the 5400V? I have, and frankly, I am hunting hard for a second hand model, it was not just good, it was excellent, even if it offered just 70 Wrms into 8 Ohms, it had all the makings of Grundig's best ever.
Of course, by the early 80ies, you had no American models to compare it with because by that time, most American companies were either bought out (e.g. Avery Fisher), or were too small to be well known (e.g. AR, Vector Research, Proton, etc). Marantz was wholly owned by Philips, and besides, they had already moved to Japan altogether (production and most of the design).
For all these reasons, Wayne, I beg to differ.
Funny thing is the Germans never made up their minds to take on Japan . They did it with cars and won . They certainly had the facilities . I suspect the VW beetle was so much what the market needed that it gave the whole industry a boost . BMW were making Bubble cars . BMW were capable of far better as the clone Bristol of 1948 proved . We mostly got bubble car hi fi from Germany .
I think people are confusing terms . Nips is possibly going too far . Japs , Yanks , Limese , Serb's ( that's almost correct both ways ) is fair enough . I worked in Social Services briefly . In the old days people were called Mongoloid , Now it's Down's Syndrome ( often Down's ) . I often said how long before we won't be able to call it that even ? We already called them people with learning difficulties as for some it was more comfortable . It made me cringe . More to the point we were people with descriptive power difficulties . Social services is like a wet handshake and so dam proud of doing everything badly . My best experience of Social Services was to drive many cars . I worked with about 20 women . I was treated like a prince . woman did not treat other women that way . Also the " love " shown to " clients " was inversely proportional to " love " shown to colleges . One learns the world in such places . Genuinely a lot of love was shown to our " clients " . I personally will say Japanese as Japs sounds to me lazy .
I think people are confusing terms . Nips is possibly going too far . Japs , Yanks , Limese , Serb's ( that's almost correct both ways ) is fair enough . I worked in Social Services briefly . In the old days people were called Mongoloid , Now it's Down's Syndrome ( often Down's ) . I often said how long before we won't be able to call it that even ? We already called them people with learning difficulties as for some it was more comfortable . It made me cringe . More to the point we were people with descriptive power difficulties . Social services is like a wet handshake and so dam proud of doing everything badly . My best experience of Social Services was to drive many cars . I worked with about 20 women . I was treated like a prince . woman did not treat other women that way . Also the " love " shown to " clients " was inversely proportional to " love " shown to colleges . One learns the world in such places . Genuinely a lot of love was shown to our " clients " . I personally will say Japanese as Japs sounds to me lazy .
All right then, would you buy your electric bouzuki from Yamaha?
Even with American pickups?
My wife's acoustic is a "Sigma." Basically made by Martin in Korea. Every time she takes lessons, she has to fend off everyone who wants to buy it. It is a wonderful sounding instrument. As good as one made here? Don't know as they are out of reach so no reason to see. I know it was clearly better than everything else in the shop.
Wayne, all that was in aid of your statement that American gear was better made than the European gear you had come in touch with.
My point was that what you had contact with may not have been on the same market level as what you compared it with.
Over the last 42 years, I have seen a lot of them, and I still think Studer's design and manufacturing practices in the mid70ies were second to none. Much of this is down to the fact that although nominally a Swiss company, they had factories in Germany as well, in fact, most gear labelled "reVox" was made in Germany, the Swiss facilities being reserved mainly for strictly professional, "Studer" labelled products.
The Germans, being the practical people they are, in those days made everyting as modular as they could, typically having a motherboard and loads of plug-in modules. This made servicing and upgrades very easy. This technology was applied everywhere it made any sense to be, including their TV sets, and Germans were nuts about their TV sets.
Everything put together, they made the same mistake Sony did later on with the Beta video format, they developed the technology, obviously believeing that this would be obvious to one and all, and used stunningly little marketing. They ended up with technologically highly advanced products nobody knew anything about. Just to prove this point, let me mention the stunning receivers made by Telefunken some years later on - same old story, incredible quality electronics, done the German way. It had many radio bands, I think only the marine bands were missing (which might have been a tragedy for somebody living in the High Sierras), yet with very, very good FM performance and excellent pre and main amp, in quadro and stereo versions. So what? Their marketing was next to none, beside printing a nice catalog.
I think an average Japanese company invested more advertising money in their entry level models than the Germans in their top flight models. By the time the Germans realized they had to spend more on marketing, it was too late, audio's heyday was over, the VCR was in, and soon afterwards, the PC came along, and audio was no longer the only electronic game in town.
My point was that what you had contact with may not have been on the same market level as what you compared it with.
Over the last 42 years, I have seen a lot of them, and I still think Studer's design and manufacturing practices in the mid70ies were second to none. Much of this is down to the fact that although nominally a Swiss company, they had factories in Germany as well, in fact, most gear labelled "reVox" was made in Germany, the Swiss facilities being reserved mainly for strictly professional, "Studer" labelled products.
The Germans, being the practical people they are, in those days made everyting as modular as they could, typically having a motherboard and loads of plug-in modules. This made servicing and upgrades very easy. This technology was applied everywhere it made any sense to be, including their TV sets, and Germans were nuts about their TV sets.
Everything put together, they made the same mistake Sony did later on with the Beta video format, they developed the technology, obviously believeing that this would be obvious to one and all, and used stunningly little marketing. They ended up with technologically highly advanced products nobody knew anything about. Just to prove this point, let me mention the stunning receivers made by Telefunken some years later on - same old story, incredible quality electronics, done the German way. It had many radio bands, I think only the marine bands were missing (which might have been a tragedy for somebody living in the High Sierras), yet with very, very good FM performance and excellent pre and main amp, in quadro and stereo versions. So what? Their marketing was next to none, beside printing a nice catalog.
I think an average Japanese company invested more advertising money in their entry level models than the Germans in their top flight models. By the time the Germans realized they had to spend more on marketing, it was too late, audio's heyday was over, the VCR was in, and soon afterwards, the PC came along, and audio was no longer the only electronic game in town.
It's not where it's made, it's all about who designed it and who is doing the quality control checking.
A good design is a good design in China just the same as in USA or Europe or Japan.
The ReVox B series cassette deck was the best made deck bar none.
They used a cast aluminium subchassis to mount the 4 motors. At one exhibition someone removed it from the deck and used it to hammer a tap into a keg of beer.
It measured as new after refitting.
As for tuners the best ones in the '80s were ReVox and Kenwood. Both allowed you to receive 26 FM stereo stations in Stuttgart cleanly. The very well made (and hugely expensive) american Sequerra managed to receive half as many stations in stereo.
The ReVox power amps featured all those things which became known and fashionable many years later like very low to no global feedback etc. They just didn't harp on about it.
As for multitrack tape recorders there was Studer followed by a huge gap and then you got MCI, Otari and the rest.
What let the german/swiss companies down was their marketing, that was always based on the premiss 'build a better mousetrap and people will buy it'.
They used a cast aluminium subchassis to mount the 4 motors. At one exhibition someone removed it from the deck and used it to hammer a tap into a keg of beer.
It measured as new after refitting.
As for tuners the best ones in the '80s were ReVox and Kenwood. Both allowed you to receive 26 FM stereo stations in Stuttgart cleanly. The very well made (and hugely expensive) american Sequerra managed to receive half as many stations in stereo.
The ReVox power amps featured all those things which became known and fashionable many years later like very low to no global feedback etc. They just didn't harp on about it.
As for multitrack tape recorders there was Studer followed by a huge gap and then you got MCI, Otari and the rest.
What let the german/swiss companies down was their marketing, that was always based on the premiss 'build a better mousetrap and people will buy it'.
That's more interesting than you think . I worked briefly with a Chinese company . It was amazing how they had developed different and some would say wrong ideas . One amplifier had distortion like a Kazoo . 90 % of that amplifier was very good . Telephone exchange style stepped attenuator ( relays and resistors ) . Shunt regulated PSU's with exquisite detail of design . A no global feedabck class B amp . I quickly designed a OP amp style power amp as a fix . My best work but as simple as I could make it . They had no idea how to set 0 V reference . I wrote back and said like an op amp . Sad to say after the first batch of 50 were sold the company doing it went out of business over a personal dispute ( not me ) .
I could have fixed the Kazoo quality given more time . All the transistors in my version and theirs were identical ( top draw components ) . The sound was as different as you can imagine . Not totally in my favour . I read on a Forum a guy say he was in the habit of changing amps often , this time a keeper . I never even got a sample to keep . Funny thing is it was my least obsessional bit of work I ever did . Competent and no more than that . best to say like Quad with attitude . My boss had said not to give them anything too precious . It was not unlike a Denon PMA 250 although no reference was made to that .
There is prejudice both negative and positive . I hope I always have positive prejudice ? Choosing outrageously good components is one . Seldom does any harm . I totally believe in foil resistors , just cant afford them .
Unlike you, Nige, I would not use outrageously componets. I have seen and heard far too many amps made with very standard components play better music than other amps using outrageously expensive components.
On the other hand, I would also never use standard components. I believe it's all supposed to be in some sort of cosmic balance. My standard are 1% metal film resistors by Beyschlag (Germany), and if I'm sexing it up, Dale in critical places. For the input stage and the NFB, I use 0.5% tolerance metal film, which I always check, just in case. This started after some Taiwan made 0.5% resistors were checked and showed a tolerance of 2%.
You can't trust any manufacturer any more, those days are dead and gone.
This is especially true of capacitor manufacturers, I check even my beloved Fisher & Tausche caps without prejudice. Never failed me yet, but it's only a matter of time.
"Kazoo"? I thought kazoo was a musical instrument - did you mean the Danish Wazoo, the sexy MOSFET amp? If so, I must say thatr's one of my greatest disappointments of all time. No stunning sound, declared as 50 Wrms per side and no way to get more than 39 Wrms from it for either love or money, and even that with 1% THD on one and 1.5% THD on the other channel, etc.
I note that Stereophile recorded very similar experiences and figures.
Looks nice from the utside, vertainly looks the business, but inside is just a little better than average, and sound is bland and uninteresting, all in all, a magnificent rip-off in my mind.
On the other hand, I would also never use standard components. I believe it's all supposed to be in some sort of cosmic balance. My standard are 1% metal film resistors by Beyschlag (Germany), and if I'm sexing it up, Dale in critical places. For the input stage and the NFB, I use 0.5% tolerance metal film, which I always check, just in case. This started after some Taiwan made 0.5% resistors were checked and showed a tolerance of 2%.
You can't trust any manufacturer any more, those days are dead and gone.
This is especially true of capacitor manufacturers, I check even my beloved Fisher & Tausche caps without prejudice. Never failed me yet, but it's only a matter of time.
"Kazoo"? I thought kazoo was a musical instrument - did you mean the Danish Wazoo, the sexy MOSFET amp? If so, I must say thatr's one of my greatest disappointments of all time. No stunning sound, declared as 50 Wrms per side and no way to get more than 39 Wrms from it for either love or money, and even that with 1% THD on one and 1.5% THD on the other channel, etc.
I note that Stereophile recorded very similar experiences and figures.
Looks nice from the utside, vertainly looks the business, but inside is just a little better than average, and sound is bland and uninteresting, all in all, a magnificent rip-off in my mind.
I say like to use , I seldom do . I like Champagne , usually it's Cava I drink . Cava is a mystery . Everything imaginable wrong except the taste . That is grape , climate and price . What I doubt is missing is the care . We do make excellent sparkling wines in England . The chalk soil and slightly extended season helps . Unlike Champagne our weather is a bit more predicable in Kent for the frost . In Champagne and Burgundy it is not unknown to use burners at night to save the crop ( frightful cost ). Yields in Burgundy are about 4% for an investment . Not bad now , was considered a fools game in the past .
French wines are said to be about " La Terre " . The soil is a spiritual concept . I do think some in audio have this way of thinking . I approve mostly . The Australians proved that La Terre is nothing much to do with it . Taking their methods to the Midi of France has produced excellent wines from very unpromising soil and climate ( if an op amps the Midi is below LM741 if La Terre ) . They in my opinion beat the Australian versions . Carbonic Maceration as it is called keeps the grape in good condition . No fancy oak unless a posh version . This wine never gets far out of the region . The French have lost the wine battle much as the Germany lost in hi fi . Cheap French wines are far better than others except New Zealand and some Chile ( Italy excellent although different variates ) . Some Macon Village I bought the other day was less than $6 a bottle . It was last years and wonderful ( Audi ) .
http://www.ucpress.edu/content/chapters/10788.ch01.pdf
It did sound like music was coming through a comb DVV . I am talking reality and not poetically .
BTW . My girlfriend does not like France DVV ( I suspect the look of it is OK if you get my meaning ) . I haven't spoken French in years now . One day she will give in and risk a visit . She loves wine so perhaps there is a chance ( she would be a connoisseur if she tried ) . She speaks French very well and Italian , insists she only has a few words of either ( German also ) . She wont go to Germany as she has heard the sun doesn't shine there like in England . Spain and Italy are OK , OK by me also .
French wines are said to be about " La Terre " . The soil is a spiritual concept . I do think some in audio have this way of thinking . I approve mostly . The Australians proved that La Terre is nothing much to do with it . Taking their methods to the Midi of France has produced excellent wines from very unpromising soil and climate ( if an op amps the Midi is below LM741 if La Terre ) . They in my opinion beat the Australian versions . Carbonic Maceration as it is called keeps the grape in good condition . No fancy oak unless a posh version . This wine never gets far out of the region . The French have lost the wine battle much as the Germany lost in hi fi . Cheap French wines are far better than others except New Zealand and some Chile ( Italy excellent although different variates ) . Some Macon Village I bought the other day was less than $6 a bottle . It was last years and wonderful ( Audi ) .
http://www.ucpress.edu/content/chapters/10788.ch01.pdf
It did sound like music was coming through a comb DVV . I am talking reality and not poetically .
BTW . My girlfriend does not like France DVV ( I suspect the look of it is OK if you get my meaning ) . I haven't spoken French in years now . One day she will give in and risk a visit . She loves wine so perhaps there is a chance ( she would be a connoisseur if she tried ) . She speaks French very well and Italian , insists she only has a few words of either ( German also ) . She wont go to Germany as she has heard the sun doesn't shine there like in England . Spain and Italy are OK , OK by me also .
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