Only when they are broken and in the process of self-healing, there would be some conversion going on.
Otherwise I agree on the Elna's. A while ago I salvaged a lot of them from a Sony SADC, amongst which 2 3300 uF 'For Audio', and in a supply I am working on, they really perform very well.
vac
Hi,
I am not really a specialist on this and what I learned is well over two decades ago and before numerous prasniks (Parties) in Moscow with too much Vodca burned away more neurons than the human brain has (or the effects of heavy drinking on the brain have been exaggerated), with little opportunity to put it to use since.
However it was my understanding then that charge transfer through the electrolyte takes places as ion transfer, not electron transfer. Now again, I am not a practising chemist or physicist, but what I remember from when I learned all that stuff, Ions and electrons are very different in nature.
Of course, in the end the charge is transferred from one plate of the capacitor to the other, however, again, I seem to remember that it made a difference which way it was done.
If I am in grievous error on this account or the state of common knowledge on the subject has changed in the interim, I'll appreciate the correction.
Ciao T
I am not really a specialist on this and what I learned is well over two decades ago and before numerous prasniks (Parties) in Moscow with too much Vodca burned away more neurons than the human brain has (or the effects of heavy drinking on the brain have been exaggerated), with little opportunity to put it to use since.
However it was my understanding then that charge transfer through the electrolyte takes places as ion transfer, not electron transfer. Now again, I am not a practising chemist or physicist, but what I remember from when I learned all that stuff, Ions and electrons are very different in nature.
Of course, in the end the charge is transferred from one plate of the capacitor to the other, however, again, I seem to remember that it made a difference which way it was done.
If I am in grievous error on this account or the state of common knowledge on the subject has changed in the interim, I'll appreciate the correction.
Ciao T
Got ’em.
We tried them in November 2009, two and a half years ago. My list is incomplete, but the main players are all here.
Let me repat – we were NOT concerned with any other type of electrolytic, but for use as filtering/decoupling of power supplies only. No attempt was made to experiemnt with any in-circuit decoupling capacitors. Hence only larger values were of interest. No attempt to measure anything was made, they were properly soldered into the power supply circuit after what we see as proper forming. My notes show that all of this took us almost two weeks to complete to our satisfaction.
Our interest was limited to 100, 220 and 470 uF on one, and 4,700, 10,000 and 22,000 uF on the other hand.
ELNA (ref. ELNA 2009/2010 catalog)
General purpose 10,000 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 88
SILMIC 100 and 200 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 104
LAO (Tonerex) cat. Pg. 112, 4,700 uF/63V, both 30*50 mm and 35*40 mm
Nichicon
KS series, 10,000uF/63V, both 30*50 and 35*40
KG series, 10,000 uF/63V, 35*50 mm
GOLD TUNE (aka Super Through)
Fisher & Tausche
10,000 uF/63V 50*80 (not snap-in, available with or without lug)
Long Life type SI4P(H), 10,000 uF/63V
100, 22ou and 470 uF same series, 63V
BC Components
22,000 uF/63V, 85 deg. C, no special markings, came in at the last moment, no data, purchased in Germany
Roe (Roederstein/Vishay)
Standard fare, purchased in Buerklin, Munich, no special markings, 100, 220 and 470 uF/63V
Siemens
Standard fare, no special series, purchased in Munich, Germany. Middle of the road pricing. 4,700 and 10,000 uF/63 values only.
Jamicon
Assortment of 100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, all 63V, all nominally low ESR, 105 deg. C, dirt cheap, local sources.
Assumed to be of Chinese manufacture, but this is unconfirmed.
A/V (Italy)
100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, standard offer, no special markings, low price.
S U M M A R Y
Three pages of notes boil down to the following:
Smaller values (100, 220 and 470 uF, all 63V)
We could not hear any significant differences between any of the samples. A light advantage to Elna and Roe.
Larger values
Elna was very clean and clear, but lacked deep bass impetus. Nichicon about the same, but choosing between the two, Elna would be chosen.
Italian A/V is literally as clear as mud, slow and murky. To be avoided.
Jamicon is a big surprise – it didn’t fail as expected and assumed, but returned a decent performance. It’s not up to the best, but it’s much better than expected, and it’s very cheap.
Nichicon did nothing to prove any particular extra value, except for the brand name. Not up to Elna.
Roe(derstein) worked as advertised and held its ground against all comers. Their 470 uF item should be preferred.
Siemens did fine, giving the bass impetus known to be in the program material about on a par with F&T and better than all others. Bass appears to be subjectively deeper.
F&T was level with Siemens, continuing its tradition of good products at a fair price. Snap in versions, together with Siemens, are definitely preferred. Standalone version, significantly larger (50*80 mm) and significantly more expensive, offer still better performance, but at a price.
BC Components was a small surprise, because it did just as well, and perhaps a bit better, than all others, for what is still a reasonable price.
The BIG surprise was Panasonic, samples came in late, but fortunately not too late. Markings are meager, just stating that it’s 4,700 uF/50V, in black packaging, model item (?) „424308“. It gave a run for their money to everybody else, and at a fair price. A very good one. To be offered as an optional alternative to standard F&T caps in the HPH-A series, at no extra cost.
Disclaimer
The above is an abbreviated version of OUR findings, after an INTERNAL test related ONLY TO OUR products. It is NOT intended and posted as a general comment on the above manufactures’ products.
We tried them in November 2009, two and a half years ago. My list is incomplete, but the main players are all here.
Let me repat – we were NOT concerned with any other type of electrolytic, but for use as filtering/decoupling of power supplies only. No attempt was made to experiemnt with any in-circuit decoupling capacitors. Hence only larger values were of interest. No attempt to measure anything was made, they were properly soldered into the power supply circuit after what we see as proper forming. My notes show that all of this took us almost two weeks to complete to our satisfaction.
Our interest was limited to 100, 220 and 470 uF on one, and 4,700, 10,000 and 22,000 uF on the other hand.
ELNA (ref. ELNA 2009/2010 catalog)
General purpose 10,000 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 88
SILMIC 100 and 200 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 104
LAO (Tonerex) cat. Pg. 112, 4,700 uF/63V, both 30*50 mm and 35*40 mm
Nichicon
KS series, 10,000uF/63V, both 30*50 and 35*40
KG series, 10,000 uF/63V, 35*50 mm
GOLD TUNE (aka Super Through)
Fisher & Tausche
10,000 uF/63V 50*80 (not snap-in, available with or without lug)
Long Life type SI4P(H), 10,000 uF/63V
100, 22ou and 470 uF same series, 63V
BC Components
22,000 uF/63V, 85 deg. C, no special markings, came in at the last moment, no data, purchased in Germany
Roe (Roederstein/Vishay)
Standard fare, purchased in Buerklin, Munich, no special markings, 100, 220 and 470 uF/63V
Siemens
Standard fare, no special series, purchased in Munich, Germany. Middle of the road pricing. 4,700 and 10,000 uF/63 values only.
Jamicon
Assortment of 100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, all 63V, all nominally low ESR, 105 deg. C, dirt cheap, local sources.
Assumed to be of Chinese manufacture, but this is unconfirmed.
A/V (Italy)
100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, standard offer, no special markings, low price.
S U M M A R Y
Three pages of notes boil down to the following:
Smaller values (100, 220 and 470 uF, all 63V)
We could not hear any significant differences between any of the samples. A light advantage to Elna and Roe.
Larger values
Elna was very clean and clear, but lacked deep bass impetus. Nichicon about the same, but choosing between the two, Elna would be chosen.
Italian A/V is literally as clear as mud, slow and murky. To be avoided.
Jamicon is a big surprise – it didn’t fail as expected and assumed, but returned a decent performance. It’s not up to the best, but it’s much better than expected, and it’s very cheap.
Nichicon did nothing to prove any particular extra value, except for the brand name. Not up to Elna.
Roe(derstein) worked as advertised and held its ground against all comers. Their 470 uF item should be preferred.
Siemens did fine, giving the bass impetus known to be in the program material about on a par with F&T and better than all others. Bass appears to be subjectively deeper.
F&T was level with Siemens, continuing its tradition of good products at a fair price. Snap in versions, together with Siemens, are definitely preferred. Standalone version, significantly larger (50*80 mm) and significantly more expensive, offer still better performance, but at a price.
BC Components was a small surprise, because it did just as well, and perhaps a bit better, than all others, for what is still a reasonable price.
The BIG surprise was Panasonic, samples came in late, but fortunately not too late. Markings are meager, just stating that it’s 4,700 uF/50V, in black packaging, model item (?) „424308“. It gave a run for their money to everybody else, and at a fair price. A very good one. To be offered as an optional alternative to standard F&T caps in the HPH-A series, at no extra cost.
Disclaimer
The above is an abbreviated version of OUR findings, after an INTERNAL test related ONLY TO OUR products. It is NOT intended and posted as a general comment on the above manufactures’ products.
Hi,
Phew...
Of course, if you compare a generic Elna with a Premium product, the outcome is obvious...
I suspect F&T would do less well against the equivalent Audio versions from Elna...
Ciao T
What "premium product"? That F&T costs about 2/3 of the Elna and is as serial as it could possibly be.
Check out its prices at http://www.buerklin.de , try and check out the prices of the Elnas and then tell me who's the premium here.
Since I am, however you look at it, the auslander here, it's possible you could have better sources, with different prices for each type, buit this is so as I know it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind anyone beating F&T and would gladly change if the price was not too much bigger than what I pay for F&T. I am by no means married to F&T or anyone else, nor do I feel any particular love for them or anyone else. I just want the best I can get for my money, that's all. And if 20% better costs 20% more, I'm fine with that.
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This is indeed the case and a brand new never used electrolytic capacitor
is essentialy a short circuit at DC but once a voltage is applied the foiled
metal plate surface will endure an electrolyse that will create an insulating
film , that s why exact capacitance is defined only after some time of burn in,
wich is of course factory implemented before the device is delivered.
Hi,
Not sure what you have as retail prices etc. Last time I shopped at Bürklin (ages ago) they where mostly selling surplus/discontinued. Has that changed?
Bürklin has nothing that matches the Elna "For Audio" I have, but their 10,000uF/63V Cap is a slightly smaller size than the 18,000uF/71V I have and costs around 20-30% more than what I pay for the Elna. Maybe your Prices for the Elna are very unreasonable? Where are they from? Elna Europe?
Ciao T
Not sure what you have as retail prices etc. Last time I shopped at Bürklin (ages ago) they where mostly selling surplus/discontinued. Has that changed?
Bürklin has nothing that matches the Elna "For Audio" I have, but their 10,000uF/63V Cap is a slightly smaller size than the 18,000uF/71V I have and costs around 20-30% more than what I pay for the Elna. Maybe your Prices for the Elna are very unreasonable? Where are they from? Elna Europe?
Ciao T
It works just like any other capacitor as two conductors separated by an isolator, with the isolator being a thin layer of aluminum oxide, and the electrolyte functioning as one of the plates.
You originally wrote, just to keep the reader informed : The electrolyte itself is another issue. Electrolytic Capacitors operate more like a battery, with conversions between domains (electrons - ions), which are absent in Film Capacitors and even in these horrible low grade ceramics.
No, the electrolyte acts just as a conductor, not like in a battery at all. Further, in a capacitor, no charge is transferred from one plate to the other, as you wrote, because that is where the insulating layer comes in between. All charge for one plate comes or goes through one lead, and all charge for the other plate comes or goes through the other lead.
(all this leaving imperfections aside)
Actually, Thorsten, I never once managed to a quote on Elna caps from Germany. I tried several addresses I got one way or another, but never made it.
Also, I do not buy F&T fro Buerklin, which is a very de luxe place price wise, it is obtained for me by my professional suppliers locally at rather agreeable prices. An F&T 10,000 uF/63V snap-in cap costs me around €8 locally, which includes transportation charges, customs at 9% and VAT at 18%, which means it was sourced for around €5-6.
Under the same circumstances, BC Components' 22.000uF/63V caps cost me €20 per piece.
If you have a good source for Elna and such like, and if you're willing to share it, I would be very grateful. A link or two would be just fine.
What I personally think of Elna is, in fact, immaterial. The public at large has been brainwashed regarding Elna a long time ago, so I need to have them inside my products, and I can always do my own sample with something else if I so feel.
Point taken.
And they were DAMN good, too. In the 70-ies, everybody who was anybody liked to sport those big babies.
Whatever happened to them? Are they still around?
Hi,
www.elna.co.jp
Just deal with Japan directly. You need to make decent levels of orders though.
If your business is too small thy should be able to send you to a decent (not rip-off priced) stocking distributor.
Ciao T
PS, I found that stuff made in Japan or for Japaese concerns, it is best to go direct. People like Elna JP, Alps JP etc. are quite helpful if you introduce yourself as SME Audio OEM...
www.elna.co.jp
Just deal with Japan directly. You need to make decent levels of orders though.
If your business is too small thy should be able to send you to a decent (not rip-off priced) stocking distributor.
Ciao T
PS, I found that stuff made in Japan or for Japaese concerns, it is best to go direct. People like Elna JP, Alps JP etc. are quite helpful if you introduce yourself as SME Audio OEM...
Is it that difficult to press Engrish button?Whats next chinese arithmetic ...Language ....... !!!!
ELNA
Wow! That is SOME price difference!
Any feelings about Cornell-Dubilier? A friend who makes amps swears by them, while I have exactly zero experience with them.
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