Joel 1 to 2 minutes is superb. Verdier says to spin so freely is a mistake. It should be true intrinsically it can if wanted. He advocates an oil which causes resistance and compensate with a bit of motor output ( Think he used Rocol lathe bed oil ). Verdiers point is that the stylus drag if damped by the properties of the oil will have a multiplier effect. That is the stylus drag is a less notable problem compared with the oil. The quality is called by some dynamic wow when things are too loose. My TD145 belt was causing an amplification of that problem. It was subtly loose. That lost an octave of bass and sounded very second rate.
If you get curious about oils I would say use very pure mineral oils. Ones not intended for engines. Sewing machine oil is OK if nothing else. If the drag gives a 0.1 % speed reduction that would be about the limit. In the 301 grease bearing it was about +1.5% if converted to oil.
I was using for fun until the stylus suspension collapsed a cheap JVC direct drive. Whilst the sound was crude it was very realistic . Initially the Thorens was beaten by it. It took work and faith to get it back to full health. For most people they have no idea and will buy something new when the problem is a small but important one like a belt. The next problem is the belt to original spec even if new.
For this reason I like the Garrard 301 and 401 idler drive. The verve of a direct drive and subtlety of a LP12. 301 if in OK condition is hard to beat . S no > 50 000 are my favouties. TD124 is an odd fish. Think I prefer TD125 belt drive.
If you get curious about oils I would say use very pure mineral oils. Ones not intended for engines. Sewing machine oil is OK if nothing else. If the drag gives a 0.1 % speed reduction that would be about the limit. In the 301 grease bearing it was about +1.5% if converted to oil.
I was using for fun until the stylus suspension collapsed a cheap JVC direct drive. Whilst the sound was crude it was very realistic . Initially the Thorens was beaten by it. It took work and faith to get it back to full health. For most people they have no idea and will buy something new when the problem is a small but important one like a belt. The next problem is the belt to original spec even if new.
For this reason I like the Garrard 301 and 401 idler drive. The verve of a direct drive and subtlety of a LP12. 301 if in OK condition is hard to beat . S no > 50 000 are my favouties. TD124 is an odd fish. Think I prefer TD125 belt drive.
Nige, that is THE problem with all vintage gear devices.
Most often, they are electrically as they should be, but things like pots, switches and selectors spoil the show. And using save-all spray cans to improve contacts usually makes thing worse by turning dust to semi liquid muck.
Not many have the patience and/or stamina to do it the right way, which is to dismantle switches, open them up, clean them properly, dry them and carefully reassamble them. Pots should be exchanged with new ones whenever possible, as their tracking is usually suspect.
All that for just electronics - no wonder you need even more for an electro-mechanical device such as the TT. Motors, pullies, gimbal bearings (if not sealed and oiled for life), the works. A devil's job, but I know of no other method to get them to be fully functional again.
Most often, they are electrically as they should be, but things like pots, switches and selectors spoil the show. And using save-all spray cans to improve contacts usually makes thing worse by turning dust to semi liquid muck.
Not many have the patience and/or stamina to do it the right way, which is to dismantle switches, open them up, clean them properly, dry them and carefully reassamble them. Pots should be exchanged with new ones whenever possible, as their tracking is usually suspect.
All that for just electronics - no wonder you need even more for an electro-mechanical device such as the TT. Motors, pullies, gimbal bearings (if not sealed and oiled for life), the works. A devil's job, but I know of no other method to get them to be fully functional again.
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Is that you George, contemplating the blue seas of the Aegean?
I see you managed to keep the ouzo and/or Metaxa out of the picture ...
Wow Nigel, Thanks for this!
I'm doing some work with TT plinths to replace Vintage Ones.. If you don't mind I'd like to PM you sometime with some questions?
Speaking of oil, someone gave me this bottle of oil, years ago, for Hyperspace, not sure what it is specifically..Can anyone identify it?
I Have to say, I spent 1 hour last evening reading this thread, starting at the beginning.. Enlightening to say the least.. I love Top Designed Tube amps VS Solid State, Wavebourn posts, and some other posts, has help me understand why.
My Plan is to read through the entire thread..
Attachments
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Summer 2007 Zakynthos, Ionian sea.
Despite what Jacco spreads around, I love spinning the bottle, so I sent him my most intimidating/seductive look.
(I remain that handsome, alas no trace of black hair anymore)
There is no technical info for that Hyperspace bearing oil but they charge 44.6 Euro for what you have been given.
That bearing is asking for a low viscosity oil
George
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Is there someone who can help me understand this? Do they have to milk fleas to get it?
Male fleas Xmas is only a couple of months away, time for a $1000 HR PSU upgrade ?
Jan,
Save some money
, pay a visit here:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/62049-never-connected-hr-supply-circuit-2.html#post713852
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/62049-never-connected-hr-supply-circuit-3.html#post727102
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/62049-never-connected-hr-supply-circuit.html#post699559
George
...
Oh thanks a lot Jacco!
I have searched (in vain) for this “Never-Connect” patent using as the keyword the company name that trades this concept.
In an attempt to restore the credibility of the name ‘George’ in the technical community, here is a link to the truly innovative and refreshing ideas of Mr. Jörg :
Joerg Sprave's 100 WAYS (NOT) TO USE A CONDOM #100ways #VD14 #JGA - YouTube
George
I have searched (in vain) for this “Never-Connect” patent using as the keyword the company name that trades this concept.
In an attempt to restore the credibility of the name ‘George’ in the technical community, here is a link to the truly innovative and refreshing ideas of Mr. Jörg :
Joerg Sprave's 100 WAYS (NOT) TO USE A CONDOM #100ways #VD14 #JGA - YouTube
George
It might just be AFT. If so it is an excellent product for turntables. Do ask any questions.
I realized yesterday. I have pulled apart 1000's of things. I had just qualified in electrical engineering with electronics endorsement in 1974 . There were no jobs and we were heading for Mr Heaths Winter of Discontent. My mother spotted a job at a place that was Heaven on Earth to me. I applied and got the job. It was a failing business and I was determined to change it. As time went on I got my dream. I especially got my dream as so many students wanted jobs. I was allowed to repair and teach. We were a very happy team. I was totally a member of what people called The Flat Earth Society. As I said from a human perspective it is. I suppose my trip to Scotland to meet Ivor Tiefenbrrun was part of it. I didn't sell Linn for I guess 5 years after that. It was purely to meet my hero. My boss was not so impressed by him. Too similar.
I did a tiny bit of extra research on the TD145 as I am dumbfounded as to how good it sounds. Like a Technics SP10 without the HF tizz ( cogging ). I think the happy accident is the Linn springs. The deck is very solid compared with either Linn or standard Thorens . My guess is still enough to be a valid as a suspension? There is no hint of feedback and that is with the turntable 2 inches from one speaker. What I think has happened is the rotational resonance is non existent except what the belt throws into the pot ( considerable and that's why belt drives are not the answer ) . The deck is almost ridged in the that direction. Some use tape leader as a belt. That is looking at the problem correctly. As said a Kevlar backing might be the answer. Super glue leader tape on the back of a rubber belt ?
What people might fail to see is the suspension being free to move in the vertical will preserve all the vertical information in the record. This is the spooky stuff that causes goose bumps. The information that nearly everything fights against. Goodness knows cutting it is troublesome.
I got this idea when thinking of Dual decks. Their suspension seems none existent. Almost a waste of time. If taking them apart their spring is housed in a rubber support. This seems to allow < 0.5 mm travel. My problem has always been believing it hasn't sagged. I cut 2 mm off of the height to show a suspension like a Thorens. Can't say for sure it's needed. Then it struck me. As long as the springs do a little it is probably enough. Linn say placing a turntable in another room can dramatically improve the sound. I never noticed this myself. Usually a deck with engineering problems it not confined to feedback. Also I suspect feedback is not the effect we are hearing although unwelcome. It is the stylus encountering the mass and time delay. The springs allow it not to see that mass. If so the transmission speed around the loop is faster. That's why damping must be applied cautiously. It might do something unexpected and rather nasty.
Max Townsend said the springs in a Linn sound like a spring-line. Singing in the bath effect. I doubt it as the Garrard 401 sounds much like a Linn. The 401 being better if the number of bass notes heard if important to state it . I suspect the TD145 as here is slightly better than a Linn. If I buy my LP 12 a DL103 I will find out. The 103 is so that all can use the deck. The Lyra is better but impractical with it's exposed coils.
The Denon DL110 is unbelievable and might be in the real world better than the DL103 ( 103R is wonderful ) . I have had doubts about the 103 . VTA is so important with it. I have no VTA on the TP16 arm so it is impressive that it should work. Tracks a mountain.
I suspect the DL110 might have an ideal loading. It might be 10K . I would expect most people to dislike the DL 110. This would be because it needs a bespoke preamp. The Quad instead of falling flat on it's face seems ideal with it . That is unlikely at England winning the World Cup. I can happen and did when the Quad was in final development in 1966. I must borrow some ESL 57's as I think it will be the definitive 1967 system. My best guess is an ADC Pritchard PU and SME 10 inch on TD150 would have been almost equal or the Ortofon SPU better. The 10 inch is a far better arm and usually fits the same hole. 222 or 210 mm fixings . I used 215 mm as a fits all SME solution. TD 150 is complicated as the the SME slot is North South. Ideally at 45 degrees which is too wide for the TD150/160/125. If you build a new Thorens plinth use 1 inch of lets say Maple and make it wider to allow the 45 degrees. If so any arm should fit. Try for 12 inch also in the far corner. Do not alter the Thorens design. What looks nasty isn't. Linn found 25% of the suspension is the nasty way Thorens do it. Car tyres the same.
What people might fail to see is the suspension being free to move in the vertical will preserve all the vertical information in the record. This is the spooky stuff that causes goose bumps. The information that nearly everything fights against. Goodness knows cutting it is troublesome.
I got this idea when thinking of Dual decks. Their suspension seems none existent. Almost a waste of time. If taking them apart their spring is housed in a rubber support. This seems to allow < 0.5 mm travel. My problem has always been believing it hasn't sagged. I cut 2 mm off of the height to show a suspension like a Thorens. Can't say for sure it's needed. Then it struck me. As long as the springs do a little it is probably enough. Linn say placing a turntable in another room can dramatically improve the sound. I never noticed this myself. Usually a deck with engineering problems it not confined to feedback. Also I suspect feedback is not the effect we are hearing although unwelcome. It is the stylus encountering the mass and time delay. The springs allow it not to see that mass. If so the transmission speed around the loop is faster. That's why damping must be applied cautiously. It might do something unexpected and rather nasty.
Max Townsend said the springs in a Linn sound like a spring-line. Singing in the bath effect. I doubt it as the Garrard 401 sounds much like a Linn. The 401 being better if the number of bass notes heard if important to state it . I suspect the TD145 as here is slightly better than a Linn. If I buy my LP 12 a DL103 I will find out. The 103 is so that all can use the deck. The Lyra is better but impractical with it's exposed coils.
The Denon DL110 is unbelievable and might be in the real world better than the DL103 ( 103R is wonderful ) . I have had doubts about the 103 . VTA is so important with it. I have no VTA on the TP16 arm so it is impressive that it should work. Tracks a mountain.
I suspect the DL110 might have an ideal loading. It might be 10K . I would expect most people to dislike the DL 110. This would be because it needs a bespoke preamp. The Quad instead of falling flat on it's face seems ideal with it . That is unlikely at England winning the World Cup. I can happen and did when the Quad was in final development in 1966. I must borrow some ESL 57's as I think it will be the definitive 1967 system. My best guess is an ADC Pritchard PU and SME 10 inch on TD150 would have been almost equal or the Ortofon SPU better. The 10 inch is a far better arm and usually fits the same hole. 222 or 210 mm fixings . I used 215 mm as a fits all SME solution. TD 150 is complicated as the the SME slot is North South. Ideally at 45 degrees which is too wide for the TD150/160/125. If you build a new Thorens plinth use 1 inch of lets say Maple and make it wider to allow the 45 degrees. If so any arm should fit. Try for 12 inch also in the far corner. Do not alter the Thorens design. What looks nasty isn't. Linn found 25% of the suspension is the nasty way Thorens do it. Car tyres the same.
Can anyone explain ? Suppose a heavy platter due to inertia keeps rotating for good amount of time (for example one min.) and lets say it has synchronous motor which is dependent on frequency. It is obvious as frequency changes the turntable speed changes but would the rotating platter maintain accurate speed due to inertia even if there are very short duration frequency changes for lets say milliseconds ?
Thanks and regards.
Thanks and regards.
If you take the bearing friction and residuals as linear with the square of angular velocity, and you pick a platter weight, you can easily calculate the answer to your question.
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That's exactly the problem and mostly turntables do not address it. Roy Gandy showed me a Technics motor that had it 's servos changed. The wow being very high by the standards of what is possible. This gave reduced flutter. That is the better compromise if using off the shelf solutions . Like engine mapping it is possible to play with it. Unlike belt drive it is then down to one variable.
Roy's point was that the servos read the music as an error signal.
Synchronous motors are nasty devices. The turntable version is a fine balance between torque and vibration. A lot of misinformation out there. The vibration even when the phase shift is optimum is still high. My conjecture is the windows of the motor magnetic circuit force a near square wave to be made from the sine wave input. Thus only voltage is available as a control method. Selecting a capacitor to do optimum phase stiff works well. You can mechanically couple two motors to reduce vibration and will give extra torque.
Whazzat? Turbo Servo Double Direct Drive?
Anyway, Nige, you just convinced me to stick to direct drive.
My TT halves motor rpm during start-up, higher torque with a single AC motor.
PWM/oscillator speed controller stuff is nasty too.
Whazzat? Turbo Servo Double Direct Drive?
Anyway, Nige, you just convinced me to stick to direct drive.
Yes and no. I always wanted to use an SP 10 at high speed via a reduction drive. I have a BBC SP 10 with external PSU .
The Garrard hysteresis motor is reasonably good. The poles don't produce pulses as dramatically as synchronous. At light load they are reasonably synchronous. In the Garrard 501 we used a medical 4 pole much like a Garrard ( only rotor and stator used and much modified ). It being 28 watt and the Garrard 12 to 16 watt. I toyed with a 6 pole as that should be better and allows larger pulley size ( 6 mm becomes 9 mm at 52Hz ).
Bob a friend modified a Technics 1210. He replaced the platter with one from a Garrard 401 machined to fit . Made his own arm and has a Lyra PU. The chassis is all wood. It looks and sounds beautiful and has no obvious 1210 crudity.
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