Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

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All this is related to internal wiring, mind you. For interconnects, I've settled on silver plated OFC cable also from Neotech, but again, since all my gear is grouped together, I rarely need long interconnects. Prehaps those wdo do need longer interconnects might feel differently.


"The unidirectional UP-OCC has no electric resistance and practically no crystal boundaries. ":rolleyes:
 
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Delayed response

However linear Hall sensors and suitable linear amplifiers with a suitable gain control could make for a very smooth drive. This may be what the Denon AC direct drive was, I never could get details. otherwise a two phase ac drive to a Pabst motor may be as close to ideal as you can get.

With their 3 phase AC ‘servo’ motor models as well as with their DC servo motor models, speed was monitored for frequency and phase variations through two gapped cored coil sensors, in a just like a stereo tape head construction. No hall sensors with these two direct drive motor types.
You can study the service manuals at: Denon Manuals - Vinyl Engine
:)
George
 
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DVV, as far as I know, large Miller caps usually create low slew rate, and therefore higher TIM. Also, a large Miller cap, LOWERS the open loop bandwidth. This too has been found important. However, come to understand, that all else being equal, only higher feedback can give you lower distortion. Of course, they could have improved the open loop transfer function with careful design, but that should have made things better sounding, all else being equal.
 
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Hi,

"The unidirectional UP-OCC has no electric resistance and practically no crystal boundaries. "

Come on Scott, admit it. It's the perfect conductor. The silver one is even more better perfecter. :D

Anyhow, now that I found the profile for the most objective participant for these tests I can't say my mail box is actually flooded with candidates.
They all seem to care way too much. One way or another....:smash:

Cheers, ;)
 
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BTW, I really don't think we should underestimate our ears. I think we still don't know enough how the whole mechanism works, fro ear to brain, and what the brain does with after that, and how.

Indeed, and that's exactly the reason for controlled listening. Trying to beat that lying, scheming brain of yours. And mine, of course. ;)
 
For all practical purposes, interconnects have virtually no series resistance. In fact it is difficult to measure what there is with a typical multimeter. Now we know that Silver is SLIGHTLY more conductive that copper, but that is NOT an apparent reason for a sound difference. Even with copper, the ratio of the series resistance of the interconnect to the preamp load is 100,000/1 or more. What is a few percent difference? However, the purer the metal, the lower the resistance as well. So high purity copper or silver has a slightly lower measured resistance. Now, what was removed, resistance or non-linear diode like characteristics?
 
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diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
Hi,

So high purity copper or silver has a slightly lower measured resistance. Now, what was removed resistance or diode like characteristics?

Silver forms longer crystals than copper does when cooled down so there are less crystal boundaries in silver.
Still, the differences in conductivity are so tiny that you'd really need to have an awful lot of wire to even make it audible.

Micro-diodes hidden at the crystal lattices? Audible?
A camera shot made with an electron microscope showed the electrons "jumping" over the boundaries.
I posted it up here many lightyears ago. Could be in the archives somewhere.

Not sure if anyone around here recalls an issue from "L'Audiophile" where the people behind the Isoda cable talked about the "sound" of various metals.
I can link to a copy of it, in French, bien entendu.
Far from scientific, just the story of their listening tests.

To me, it's very hard to pinpoint what exactly is going on, if there actually is something going on to begin with....

Mysteres et boules de gomme, ;)
 
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"The unidirectional UP-OCC has no electric resistance and practically no crystal boundaries. ":rolleyes:

Scusi, signore Wurcer, but why add that sentence to my post?

I never said or implied anything like it. I have no idea where it comes from. And if it should happen to come from Neotech, I believe in no such nonsense and rule myself not by their words, but by their products.
 
DVV, as far as I know, large Miller caps usually create low slew rate, and therefore higher TIM. Also, a large Miller cap, LOWERS the open loop bandwidth. This too has been found important. However, come to understand, that all else being equal, only higher feedback can give you lower distortion. Of course, they could have improved the open loop transfer function with careful design, but that should have made things better sounding, all else being equal.

Agreed, John, I wasn't trying to kick start a discussion on it, it was just a side remark because I once saw an amp, unfortunately forgetting from whom, which biased the input stage at 0.5 mA per trannie, and used 120 pF for Miller capaitance.

Grand 4.17 V/uS of a slew rate, kinda catastrophic in my book.
 
I doubt cables on their own can act as a filter, the difference between cables is not that extreme...I also believe a cable manufacturer got a slap on the wrist for claiming such things...
Well if one can measure the required elements of a filter in a cable i.e inductance and capacitance between conductors then by what means does it not act like a filter ? :confused: I was talking in the mid rf range. the filter effect may or may not be much based on the amount of rf on the mains. Then manufacturer got slap on the wrist I think for over over stating the amount of filtering .
 
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To me, it's very hard to pinpoint what exactly is going on, if there actually is something going on to begin with....

Mysteres et boules de gomme, ;)
Frank, all the answers are already out there; the "hard bit" is acquiring the knowledge required for selecting the particularly relevant ones, and discarding the far lesser ...

Going back to the Jadis experience is a good example - if you trawl through the threads for a while a particular behaviour starts to peek out at you: valves severely, savagely overloaded produce excellent SQ, until they melt down, explode or whatever other spectacular ending they have in mind. IOW, there is a "theme" that the amplifier going into a grossly inefficient mode, burning up a vast amount of energy while producing only nominal levels of sound give your ears a treat - a sort of super, class A mode. So, some of the answers are buried in that phenomenon - but do you think anyone is going to seriously investigate it ... ? :rolleyes:
 
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Scusi, signore Wurcer, but why add that sentence to my post?

I never said or implied anything like it. I have no idea where it comes from. And if it should happen to come from Neotech, I believe in no such nonsense and rule myself not by their words, but by their products.

Yes Neotech, and they need a visit from the grammar police too. The cadre of savants that design great products with no understanding of physics or engineering.

BTW the quote from Bob, "At this point, it should be clear that slew rate is the most important single parameter governing TIM performance, while feedback factor and open-loop bandwidth have no bearing on TlM." His paper and arguments are very clear, and don't require any esoteric math or difficult understanding.
 
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The thing I noticed on my amp that should have been obvious is the the waves look perfect on the scope right up to clipping. It is only with reference to the input wave that the the wave top is wider. I had another 1% wave up that wasn't as nice from a saturated transformer used as limiting. It looked nothing like the original . This may be very simplistic. If the shape is hard to pick out as wrong by eye it might be equally hard by ear? Why should a crude device like the ear not be happy with that? The THD of the ear is about 30%. It has ways of working out what it needs and can resolve very small deviations.
The ear is an amazing thing, it can resolve tiny artifacts amidst high intensity sound with little difficulty if not overloaded - an excellent example is a piano, acoustic if you have one, I use our Yamaha digital keyboard for this: have the volume at full, intense listening levels - the sound is thundering through the house - then go right up to the instrument being played, literally feet or inches away from the soundboard or speaker. The sound waves are intense, blasting you, yet you can still hear tiny details of slight buzzing, rattling noises, subtle "imperfections" in the sound - the ear/brain is doing an excellent job of keeping all the sound energy in order, effectively attenuating the high intensity peaks so that the little things still come through.

This is the signature of real instrument sound, and what most hifi is quite limp wristed at doing - which is why one can nearly always pick audio sound, even from a distance.
 
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