At the risk of boring you more another OB observation with slightly unusual outcomes that might be universally important ?
The tweeter I have on order is 6 db quieter than my bass unit . As the maths look no worse than a SE zero loop feedback tube amp a L pad attenuator looks workable . I still have plenty of headroom although using 16 db at 30 Hz EQ .
It occurred to me that a series resistance might be the right place to start . 10 R nicely raises the total resistance to 17R , it also in two senses raises the bass . One is as a capacitor coupled amp it sees 2000 uF into 17 R = 4.7 Hz rather than 10 Hz . Also it allows the bass unit LF resonance peak to be greater .
The outcome is awful . There is obviously a change to the frequency response that is no surprise . Not drastic . The bass is neither better nor worse although slightly changed . Would nicely suit guitar as a musical effect .
The big difference is crude shoutiness of the wizzer cone . The usual wizzer cone sound made worse . Hats off to you Eminence you have tamed the beast . Also they may have given me more than an expensive mid range plus crossover .
It seems damping factor is a mid-band quality and more so that I even guessed . I think this is why active needs care when remodeling crossovers , a totally new sound unrelated to the origin design . That is perhaps why many high efficiency speakers sound wrong on fashionable tube amps , they need high damping factor in the mid-range . I suspect there is a damping factor for each amp and speaker in each room ? My preference for thin cable might be I like it slightly under-damped ? Thin cables sound so much more open to me and bass more as real life . They also have much less hash . 0.6 mm dia is an OK compromise . 0.25 mm good for tweeters .
For the want of a 0R33 resistor some may never get the sound they would love ? Damping factor of 16 was guessed to be the tipping point a long time ago ( 1978 ? ) . 3 was said to be a critical low point ( 1955 wireless World using experimental and subjective evaluation ) . I think I have just proved that when 1.7 .
There were many positives in using this resistor . Problem is it removes the special qualities which suggest an expensive design . Namely speed and musical instrument interplay , that is the people playing are almost visible .
One thing that is reassuring is at nearly 60 I still need the last octave a tweeter gives ( 50 kHz in fact ) . As I have no tweeter I will try the tweeter at - 6 dB and not build it an amp for now . After that this project will go to sleep for a few months .
All this makes me think current drive will cause too many problems and is a caprice . The fact speaker drive units as sold expect a constant voltage source seems to ensure current drive unlikely to be workable . It isn't the obvious bass problems . It is resonances which must be manifold ? Effectively we are putting a very light viscosity oil in the coil gaps that is removed for each cycle with voltage drive ( I know it is the opposite of oil viscosity in the graph it gives , at any one time it feels as oil would ) . That is if we value it ? Every time I have tried this I get this result . OB makes it say how bad it is . Equally box speakers are adding similar so make it harder to tell . If the driver is resolved to pure resistance and then EQ'ed it should work . I doubt it . It might if a large chunk of power was thrown away . In that case it still would be voltage drive in essence . That is lets say the shunt resistor is 1 R .
Maybe Bob Stewart was right in 1973 to say that negative feedback is mostly to control speakers . The amp gets in the way of it's function and must be told to behave itself ?
You may say all of this is known . As I said I never believe anything said especially if I said it . Test and then say you truly know.
One thing I know is gradually colouration clear to others will emerge . I don't hear them as they are under control and I am hearing real people making real music overlayed with sounds that could be the room but likely aren't .
The tweeter I have on order is 6 db quieter than my bass unit . As the maths look no worse than a SE zero loop feedback tube amp a L pad attenuator looks workable . I still have plenty of headroom although using 16 db at 30 Hz EQ .
It occurred to me that a series resistance might be the right place to start . 10 R nicely raises the total resistance to 17R , it also in two senses raises the bass . One is as a capacitor coupled amp it sees 2000 uF into 17 R = 4.7 Hz rather than 10 Hz . Also it allows the bass unit LF resonance peak to be greater .
The outcome is awful . There is obviously a change to the frequency response that is no surprise . Not drastic . The bass is neither better nor worse although slightly changed . Would nicely suit guitar as a musical effect .
The big difference is crude shoutiness of the wizzer cone . The usual wizzer cone sound made worse . Hats off to you Eminence you have tamed the beast . Also they may have given me more than an expensive mid range plus crossover .
It seems damping factor is a mid-band quality and more so that I even guessed . I think this is why active needs care when remodeling crossovers , a totally new sound unrelated to the origin design . That is perhaps why many high efficiency speakers sound wrong on fashionable tube amps , they need high damping factor in the mid-range . I suspect there is a damping factor for each amp and speaker in each room ? My preference for thin cable might be I like it slightly under-damped ? Thin cables sound so much more open to me and bass more as real life . They also have much less hash . 0.6 mm dia is an OK compromise . 0.25 mm good for tweeters .
For the want of a 0R33 resistor some may never get the sound they would love ? Damping factor of 16 was guessed to be the tipping point a long time ago ( 1978 ? ) . 3 was said to be a critical low point ( 1955 wireless World using experimental and subjective evaluation ) . I think I have just proved that when 1.7 .
There were many positives in using this resistor . Problem is it removes the special qualities which suggest an expensive design . Namely speed and musical instrument interplay , that is the people playing are almost visible .
One thing that is reassuring is at nearly 60 I still need the last octave a tweeter gives ( 50 kHz in fact ) . As I have no tweeter I will try the tweeter at - 6 dB and not build it an amp for now . After that this project will go to sleep for a few months .
All this makes me think current drive will cause too many problems and is a caprice . The fact speaker drive units as sold expect a constant voltage source seems to ensure current drive unlikely to be workable . It isn't the obvious bass problems . It is resonances which must be manifold ? Effectively we are putting a very light viscosity oil in the coil gaps that is removed for each cycle with voltage drive ( I know it is the opposite of oil viscosity in the graph it gives , at any one time it feels as oil would ) . That is if we value it ? Every time I have tried this I get this result . OB makes it say how bad it is . Equally box speakers are adding similar so make it harder to tell . If the driver is resolved to pure resistance and then EQ'ed it should work . I doubt it . It might if a large chunk of power was thrown away . In that case it still would be voltage drive in essence . That is lets say the shunt resistor is 1 R .
Maybe Bob Stewart was right in 1973 to say that negative feedback is mostly to control speakers . The amp gets in the way of it's function and must be told to behave itself ?
You may say all of this is known . As I said I never believe anything said especially if I said it . Test and then say you truly know.
One thing I know is gradually colouration clear to others will emerge . I don't hear them as they are under control and I am hearing real people making real music overlayed with sounds that could be the room but likely aren't .
The original OB are now boxed ( resistive port loaded ) . They sound fine but are not as good . Can live with that .
The damping effects are real and valuable . What I am trying to share is you know nothing you only read about . My ex wife was telling me she visited a vineyard that claims to only grow old English grapes ( 1500's varieties ) . Who can believe that ? The wine is organic and $20 a bottle . The ex said her and the boyfriend had to pour it into the flowers when the lady wasn't looking . Without trying who can tell . The German hippy lady thinks it is wonderful .
The damping effects are real and valuable . What I am trying to share is you know nothing you only read about . My ex wife was telling me she visited a vineyard that claims to only grow old English grapes ( 1500's varieties ) . Who can believe that ? The wine is organic and $20 a bottle . The ex said her and the boyfriend had to pour it into the flowers when the lady wasn't looking . Without trying who can tell . The German hippy lady thinks it is wonderful .
Interesting how people run straight to fiddling with the speakers as the great solution to getting "magical" sound, nearly every time - whereas this is the last thing I worry about. For me, the "magic" is in how well the electronics are driving the speakers - this makes or breaks the sound, devastatingly so - I can have a system that produces gut wrenching crud, impossible to live with shriekiness or deadness - or totally captivating, natural sound ... just by some slight fiddling with electronically related factors - no speaker is 'injured' - interfered with, 
- in this exercise ...
- in this exercise ...
Always pleased to be of service, a.wayne ... 
Interestingly, I do have a CD here now which may test my faith in "no bad recordings!" - MPD Limited, Cockroach Records, excellent local duo from the 60's. The transfer from supposedly original master tapes is truly atrocious, something was very, very wrong when it was done; and to make things worse, or perhaps in an attempt to recover some "quality", the upper midrange has been ferociously pushed - at the moment there is almost no redeeming quality to any of the sound, in any area! To "prove" that the tape playback is the main culprit, the last track is taken from a needle drop - my goodness, very acceptable, pleasing sound!!
Interestingly, I do have a CD here now which may test my faith in "no bad recordings!" - MPD Limited, Cockroach Records, excellent local duo from the 60's. The transfer from supposedly original master tapes is truly atrocious, something was very, very wrong when it was done; and to make things worse, or perhaps in an attempt to recover some "quality", the upper midrange has been ferociously pushed - at the moment there is almost no redeeming quality to any of the sound, in any area! To "prove" that the tape playback is the main culprit, the last track is taken from a needle drop - my goodness, very acceptable, pleasing sound!!
Interesting how people run straight to fiddling with the speakers as the great solution to getting "magical" sound, nearly every time - whereas this is the last thing I worry about. For me, the "magic" is in how well the electronics are driving the speakers - this makes or breaks the sound, devastatingly so - I can have a system that produces gut wrenching crud, impossible to live with shriekiness or deadness - or totally captivating, natural sound ... just by some slight fiddling with electronically related factors - no speaker is 'injured' - interfered with,
Frank, that's so because I find that modern philosophies of loudspeakers favor teeny weeny cabinets, with ridiculously small bass/mid drivers. I find it natural that people should look at the sopeakers first because they intuitively feel that something is wrong with them, that they are skiving instead of doing their job properly.
Give them the two bottom octaves and they just might start to smile.
Add some decent drive and they will smile for sure.
I do agree that lack of gravitas may also come from the electronics, though.
Mr Dvv that alas is where I am . Tested some 5 inch units OB and was happy . Now they are in shoe boxes . They are very good for what they are . Their voice is totally different compared with OB . I heavily EQ'ed them and they are promising . As I said to Adam .
" Having heard the SB in OB I know it is innocent . I now feel I have crossed a barrier in understanding . 50% of what we hear is box and like a marriage being alone is often to be happier . How do we make the marriage work ? We want it so much we make it work ."
Adam has bought the old Royd company , we are hoping this is worthy and mostly as Royd would have done it . It is a spiritual clone with some Dynaco inspiration which 101% works .
I have been asked to develop the OB and I will try an additional 15 inch bass to cross at 100 Hz down to 30 Hz with heavy EQ . This will not be a Royd product , I would also like a 7 foot Voight pipe version for me . I love the speed of the SB driver . Good timing as we use to say .
My Bluetooth is US . Will post photo's when finished . I usually strongly resit speaking of paid for work I do . This is an exception as I vowed never to make speakers .
" Having heard the SB in OB I know it is innocent . I now feel I have crossed a barrier in understanding . 50% of what we hear is box and like a marriage being alone is often to be happier . How do we make the marriage work ? We want it so much we make it work ."
Adam has bought the old Royd company , we are hoping this is worthy and mostly as Royd would have done it . It is a spiritual clone with some Dynaco inspiration which 101% works .
I have been asked to develop the OB and I will try an additional 15 inch bass to cross at 100 Hz down to 30 Hz with heavy EQ . This will not be a Royd product , I would also like a 7 foot Voight pipe version for me . I love the speed of the SB driver . Good timing as we use to say .
My Bluetooth is US . Will post photo's when finished . I usually strongly resit speaking of paid for work I do . This is an exception as I vowed never to make speakers .
Alas as 95 % will never get to hear what I heard . It would be like the day the air speed indicator exceeded 1000 MPH in a Boeing 747 and the stewardess explaining how it is possible .
I now understand why people make speakers . It is more like making a clay pot . It requires asking yourself which compromise you can live with . Amplifiers mostly work OK , I can live with most of them . The finessing is about how we see it . Speakers are mostly very bad things and we must allow taste to dominate . They are going to be bad whatever we do . They might as well suit the music we like . As you know my Cagney and Lacy test matters to me . I watch TV and unlike my friends expect it to sound OK through my speakers . Last night the TV sound was no worse through TV if I am honest . That is as good as it can be with hi fi speakers playing TV . The big difference was real moody bass once in a while and unsuspected sounds off stage . Both sounds say they could try harder when doing production . Films are great and no contest . Adverts are superb , funny how selling people never take the risk .
I now understand why people make speakers . It is more like making a clay pot . It requires asking yourself which compromise you can live with . Amplifiers mostly work OK , I can live with most of them . The finessing is about how we see it . Speakers are mostly very bad things and we must allow taste to dominate . They are going to be bad whatever we do . They might as well suit the music we like . As you know my Cagney and Lacy test matters to me . I watch TV and unlike my friends expect it to sound OK through my speakers . Last night the TV sound was no worse through TV if I am honest . That is as good as it can be with hi fi speakers playing TV . The big difference was real moody bass once in a while and unsuspected sounds off stage . Both sounds say they could try harder when doing production . Films are great and no contest . Adverts are superb , funny how selling people never take the risk .
Always pleased to be of service, a.wayne ...
Interestingly, I do have a CD here now which may test my faith in "no bad recordings!" - MPD Limited, Cockroach Records, excellent local duo from the 60's. The transfer from supposedly original master tapes is truly atrocious, something was very, very wrong when it was done; and to make things worse, or perhaps in an attempt to recover some "quality", the upper midrange has been ferociously pushed - at the moment there is almost no redeeming quality to any of the sound, in any area! To "prove" that the tape playback is the main culprit, the last track is taken from a needle drop - my goodness, very acceptable, pleasing sound!!
Sometimes they are taken from the vinyl cutting sub-masters . The lathe settings are written on the box . If this is the only tape it should be carefully EQ'ed with a turntable to reference from . The problem is many young engineers have no experience and it shows when doing this work . They just assume what they hear is an accurate version of music they have no feeling for . All vinyl cutting I have been at is checked . Attempts are made to get it as the recording engineer wanted it . How else can it be done ? The supposed cutting art is not as stated . It is like my speaker description of making the best of a bad process . Like speakers it can be close to working really well . Lathes work like very complex speakers . The human voice is the same . A highly non linear device under computer control that can be made to work as long as it is not me being asked to sing that is . I am very non linear .
Generally speaking good CD's sound better superficially than the vinyl . The vinyl often has the edge in being somehow better than the sum of it's parts . This might be because the stereo separation is wrong in transfer ? Whatever the excuse tin-eared engineers seem to exist . Personally I would always make vinyl CD's from vinyl if no master available . Clean first on a Keith Monks machine and process if needed . Use a Garrard 401 if wanting a more master-tape like sound ( incisive ) . 301 is better but has some rumble .
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Nige, you will NEVER please everyone, not even most people. It's not only about what you have made, but also about how it differs from what the people are used to. From the "standard" fare today.
I consider my speakers to be supremely neutral, you don't hear the box at all. Yet statistically, most audio "affictionados" didn't like them much, but literally all of the people involved with live music liked them as being neutral, and said so.
If you take the trouble of tracking down the reason why, very often you will run up against what they have at home and what they are used to. For example, a friend, generally a serious and not malicious person, said they were a little "subdued" for his taste. At home, for some 4 to 5 years, he has listened to German made Elac speakers, well known for their 3.5 dB lift in the general 2-20 kHz region. So of course mine will sound subdued to him as they don't have any lifts or falls worse than 1.5 dB.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
I consider my speakers to be supremely neutral, you don't hear the box at all. Yet statistically, most audio "affictionados" didn't like them much, but literally all of the people involved with live music liked them as being neutral, and said so.
If you take the trouble of tracking down the reason why, very often you will run up against what they have at home and what they are used to. For example, a friend, generally a serious and not malicious person, said they were a little "subdued" for his taste. At home, for some 4 to 5 years, he has listened to German made Elac speakers, well known for their 3.5 dB lift in the general 2-20 kHz region. So of course mine will sound subdued to him as they don't have any lifts or falls worse than 1.5 dB.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
With all respect, neutral is BORING? I don't know who said that, but I would suggest that persons seeks professional help, and fast.
To me, neutral is all the fun there is to be had, as it skips over nothing, it's all there just as it's supposed to be. By comparison, coloured is far less interesting to me, even though sometimes it can be fun - example: JBL 4312 monitor. It lies, but it does so very pleasantly, like a well groomed mistress rather than a common hooker.
I want to hear it all just as it is, as the author and producer did it, not as someone making the speaker thinks I should hear it.
Neutral can sometimes clarify without words why were some audio devices so highly regarded in their time by letting them get down to it. Neutral can help make music so much more organic, so much an almost tangible work of man, not some machines.
But you are right, audiofools probably hate neutral because they have nothing to complain about, thus proving their ownership of imagined golden ears. And also probably because it emonstrates just how far behind they actually are.
In life one forms comfortable ideas about what will be right or wrong . Then the Klipsch Forte 2 comes along . On every count they should be crap . They are the opposite . I remember listening to them on a piece of music called The Valley of the Bells . Stunning . My friend who is an opera singer and PHD in sciences not unlike hi fi said they were highly accurate . I agree . Heresy's are not . And yet these speakers seem to be the Heresy's with a massive ABR at the back . Obviously tuned differently . Had I not seen Lockwood cabs I would have assumed Klipsch to be low grade , maybe not ? Price was ridiculously cheap . They hated the tube amps I tried ( be sure , Dynaco should be OK ) ! Strangely they loved Naim amps and give Naim depth and lost the strange mid band sound Naim has .
Klipsch Forte - Singapore & Malaysia Hifi | Hifi Singapore | Hifi Malaysia | Singapore Hifi Products | Malaysia Hifi Products | Hifi Audio | Stereo Hifi | Used Audio Equipment | Used Hifi Equipment | New Audio Equipment | New Hifi Equipment | Used Hi
Klipsch Forte - Singapore & Malaysia Hifi | Hifi Singapore | Hifi Malaysia | Singapore Hifi Products | Malaysia Hifi Products | Hifi Audio | Stereo Hifi | Used Audio Equipment | Used Hifi Equipment | New Audio Equipment | New Hifi Equipment | Used Hi
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I had to return to standard speakers tonight . OB are put to sleep now ( stripped down and in boxes ) . Might be 6 months before I return to them . OB seem so easy to design . They just serve up the sound we always knew we were missing . Box speakers just sound like beacons of sound . The OB is a wall of sound . I have the Maggie's so not telling the truth . They are fantastic . Preferred mine mostly as they were mine .
The OB sounds like the Klipsch only more fluid and faster . The Forte is very fast for what it's elephant looks suggest . Phenolic tweeters , how on Earth can that work ? I know how , would never have guessed . .
The OB sounds like the Klipsch only more fluid and faster . The Forte is very fast for what it's elephant looks suggest . Phenolic tweeters , how on Earth can that work ? I know how , would never have guessed . .
Very reasonably priced Klipsch can be outstanding, because they are extremely kind to the amp - I heard a "rubbishy" Japanese AV receiver drive low cost Klipsch to PA levels of intensity, with very acceptable quality - vastly superior to the majority of the prissy audiophile sound one comes across ...
Test:
Setup properly (perfect separation and listening distance with right amount of toe-in) your two speakers and the gear between them, and then measure.
...With tools (mikes, and a laptop with the right program; graphical representations) and your ears.
Then repeat the same exercise but this time with nothing between your two speakers.
* Should the separation (imaging) and listener distance (plus toe-in) change, measurably and auditory?
Can we measure the greater speaker's disappearance? Of course we can; that's the ultimate goal.
Setup properly (perfect separation and listening distance with right amount of toe-in) your two speakers and the gear between them, and then measure.
...With tools (mikes, and a laptop with the right program; graphical representations) and your ears.
Then repeat the same exercise but this time with nothing between your two speakers.
* Should the separation (imaging) and listener distance (plus toe-in) change, measurably and auditory?
Can we measure the greater speaker's disappearance? Of course we can; that's the ultimate goal.
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