I'm not sure either. I recall an anecdote told me in the mid-eighties by one of my former bosses who used to work for Quad. When he was there, he was involved in a design exercise costing up a SMPSU for their 405 amp. Whilst it was more expensive in components than the iron transformer-based supply, when the lower shipping costs were factored in due to the considerable weight reduction, it was roughly equivalent.
Agreed.
Which is why I believe the output stage of a classic linear audio amp should have additional capacitors installed as near to the power stage transistors as possible. It simply sounds better.
It's an easy test to try even at home. Simply jury rig them for a tryout, doesn't need to be aesthetically pleasing, just functional. My money is on your decision to leave them there once you have tried this simple test.
Not that this is any news, mind you, some companies did it as a matter of course decades ago, for example, Italy's Galactron. Beside stunning design ideas, they had some excellent electronic solutions as well, proving that beauty need not be only skin deep.
The big surprise for me has been that the Hypex power amp is OK , Hypex SMPS relegates it a bit . See how with a conventional PSU with an 8 pole measuring filter it is enough to get basic readings ( impossible without , the sine wave looks like a Mobius Ring ) . For my tests I am doing a - 60 dB baseline is fine ( oscillator abouit - 65 dB ) . Notice at 4 watts I can ignore the problems if using SMPS ( still jagged baseline noise , graphs are averaged ) . One can infer it won't change much between 1 and 4.3 watts so these are ghosts caused by the nature of how class D works . No ghost on conventional PSU . This is the problem with class D ,we have to take it on trust that it works . Or do what I did and create my own measuring tests . The 12 pole is a total rebuild with 8 pole available . It measured the same both times so not a ghost of the filter . The filter is 12 inverting active stages using 3K9 and 220 pF . TL074 seems to outperform anything . It's 3 MHz bandwidth seems OK . A 16 MHz chip couldn't cope . I did try lowering the filter frequency . That made it worse .
Graph No 1 and No 3 are using identical inputs and measuring equipment . Difference is PSU and nothing else . No 2 proves some is stripped out by 4 extra poles of measuring filter . I suspect the AP measuring set + filter unit is actually too good and may say that the combination is better than it is ? AP class D filter I believe is passive and high power .
Graph No 1 and No 3 are using identical inputs and measuring equipment . Difference is PSU and nothing else . No 2 proves some is stripped out by 4 extra poles of measuring filter . I suspect the AP measuring set + filter unit is actually too good and may say that the combination is better than it is ? AP class D filter I believe is passive and high power .
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The greenies are not going to stop until we have bad audio
Don't know about that either.
If I had to choose between an MC2 amp with SMPS and ANY other amp I'd pick the MC2 every time.
So that's the best amp in the world for you? Including all those you haven't heard?
Dvv . I heard a DC 300 for the first time in years . It is fantastic ! It was working with all modern externals including digital graphic equalizer . I reckon pure jealousy on the part of others to say otherwise . Most describe Amcron as a nice industrail amplifier . Rubbish . Sweet and authoritative . As John who owns it says not bad considering the lack of modern devices . A Quad 303 with attitude to my ears .
John is a sound engineer . He had both CD and turntable handy . His turntable eat the CD player for breakfast . John after some political mumblings said the same . The DC 300 needed the turntable to prove it ( STD from Scotland , rival of LP12 ) . It was lush .
I haven't heard that Amcron for at least 35 years, I've forgotten how it sounds, and have no idea how I'd react to it now, 35+ years down the road.
However, as a matter of principle, I object to anyone who used to call something the best ever, only to call something else the best now while claiming that what he used to worship 20 years ago is nothing.
A good amp is a good amp, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Of course it will be bettered by new models, that's only to be expected, but as I see it, it cannot revert from very good to very poor. Say my Marantz 170 DC power amp - it was great when it appeared in 1978, and if you ask me, it still sounds good today, although it is by comparison not as good as it used to be, others have caught up. Still makes great sounds to my ears nevertheless.
A DC300 had the attribute of being almost indestructible. One of then and a pair of LaScalla's could fill an arena and survive the band's van week after week. HI-FI? Not exactly to my ears.
I don't get too carried away with the amp of the week club after this very thread enlightened me that my problem was my speakers. I figure my HCA's are better than my CD's, so I leave it at that.
I do remember being impressed with the Aragon, an old Krell, Acrus, and a Threshold many years ago. Levinsons seemed "dry" but that may have been that I only heard them on B&W's. A baby PS was nice, but when I looked at their larger one, it sounded very dark and limited. I can also remember how many really bad amps I found when I was looking about 25 years ago. I think I brought home about a dozen over a few weeks. Bedeni, Brown, Trans-Nova, Adcom etc. Don't want to remember them. Bought a B&K that time around.
Bryston seems to generate love/hate. Never spent any time with one. They are a tad pricey for a cheapskate like me. If I find one cheap enough, I would grab a Forte, or Nak PA-5 but I don't really need any more amps. Old amps are getting expensive as they all need re-capping.
I don't get too carried away with the amp of the week club after this very thread enlightened me that my problem was my speakers. I figure my HCA's are better than my CD's, so I leave it at that.
I do remember being impressed with the Aragon, an old Krell, Acrus, and a Threshold many years ago. Levinsons seemed "dry" but that may have been that I only heard them on B&W's. A baby PS was nice, but when I looked at their larger one, it sounded very dark and limited. I can also remember how many really bad amps I found when I was looking about 25 years ago. I think I brought home about a dozen over a few weeks. Bedeni, Brown, Trans-Nova, Adcom etc. Don't want to remember them. Bought a B&K that time around.
Bryston seems to generate love/hate. Never spent any time with one. They are a tad pricey for a cheapskate like me. If I find one cheap enough, I would grab a Forte, or Nak PA-5 but I don't really need any more amps. Old amps are getting expensive as they all need re-capping.
No it wouldnt , i sold off all my mint vintage crown stuff a few years ago , all in crown wooden cabinets , really beautiful classy stuff , but nothing sonically to jump up about ...
Good point - Wayne is our reference amp torturer.
As for being "the best", heck Nige, there are as many bests as there are people. If memory serves, Amcron used to have first class build quality, up there with the best. Again, if memory serves, they were very rugged, made to be reliable where others will fail.
It has been called "industrial quality" and I have no idea what "industrial quality" build means. Perhaps the fact that it will go where angels fear to tread?
We obviously have very similar tastes and hearing. I don't question Levinson's build quality, but agree with you, it sounded a bit detached and dry to me as well. Krell I find to be a little on the rough side, but they are bubbling with life, in a sense, the opposite of Levinson.
Aragon I liked, one was with me for two weeks and I wouldn't have minded keeping it. Designed by Dan d'Agostino on a commission, if memory serves, and it more than just reminded me of Krells.
What Charles Darwin said about the amp disappearing in the music is old hat to me, my first amp of that kind was my Karan KA-i180 11 years ago now. My second such amp is my recently acquired H/K Citation 24, which did surprise me - their amps always had an attitude, good, even great sometimes, but always with an attitude. Not the 24, it also does the ultimate trick of disappearing on you, not much trace of it anywhere, be it pop, rock, classical, country, ballads, whatever. That, plus the subjective feeling that it has oodles of power (nominally 100W/8 Ohms, delivers 145/280/550W into 8/4/2 Ohms in peaks), with my relatively efficient speakers (92 dB/2.8V/1m), makes for some excellent music.
Good point - Wayne is our reference amp torturer.
As for being "the best", heck Nige, there are as many bests as there are people. If memory serves, Amcron used to have first class build quality, up there with the best. Again, if memory serves, they were very rugged, made to be reliable where others will fail.
It has been called "industrial quality" and I have no idea what "industrial quality" build means. Perhaps the fact that it will go where angels fear to tread?
Well i measured , 3-5 volt rms on avg 14 volts dynamic peak when listening , yet so many fail ..
Well i measured , 3-5 volt rms on avg 14 volts dynamic peak when listening , yet so many fail ..
14V is just 24.5W/8 Ohms - are you serious, Wayne?
Or is that 14V into your 1 Ohm, which would be 196W/1 Ohm? Also 20 Amps of current? If so, I see why so many have failed, those people make audio amps, not welding machines.
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