I have a Sony CDP 200, discrete and built like a tank, only the transport stopped working so I have to pull it out and push it in.
The new players, weigh like a feather? Over sample? What? How about reconstruction of the original signal?
Sound wise, no comparison! Fatigue? nope, so I firmly believe the circuits that reproduce the signal play an important role. This PC stuff, ewww, that sound is harsh!
When I was messing with amp designs back in high-school, I noticed a tone with different bias settings, and that lead me to power supply design.
Motorola at the time had some good DN so I tried one, wow! Stiff, and the rails were solid! I hope I saved that design!
Someone had a theroy that badly designed analogue circuits suitable for digital bandwidth would have similar sonic traits . The ideal place to try that is between the digital output and DAC . My head says rubbish and my heart say I bet it's right . A 741 would do fine ?
Anyone got a cheap ready made DAC idea ? A demo PCB and where to get it . My friend John thinks they are abundant . I have not found it so . An old Crystal 20 bit Delta Sigma would do me fine .
Maplin UK have a no description 24 bit DAC for $50 . It might be OK .
Anyone got a cheap ready made DAC idea ? A demo PCB and where to get it . My friend John thinks they are abundant . I have not found it so . An old Crystal 20 bit Delta Sigma would do me fine .
Maplin UK have a no description 24 bit DAC for $50 . It might be OK .
dvv, you apparently didn't see my post elsewhere, on another thread, where I was asked what my first, breakthrough system was: the source, a Yamaha CDX-1100! I still have the beast, working beautifully; it weighs a tonne, would put a lot of amplifiers to shame ...
Uses a PCM56 DAC per channel, and the key for me, a very nice digital volume control, easily able to drive a power amp to clipping. Biggest problem was the drive rubber band for the sled, the latter is a real heavy duty unit, with magnetic lock down of the disk clamp, and the initial torque required to get things moving has meant some fiddling over the years with replacement bands, greasing and slight resculpting of the plastics of the lifting mechanism.
As you say, inherently smooth sound but it required lengthy warm up times to get the best out of it, for me it took 3 days to reach a peak, so it was left powered on 24/7 for many years. A hilarious aspect: it had automatic play on power up if a disk was in the tray, and I also left the directly connected amp running 24/7 for best sound; later in the player's life it developed a glitch which set its volume to maximum on this autoplay, so guess what happened? At say 2 o'clock in the morning there would be an all mighty cacophony: the power supply had momentarily glitched, the CD started at full volume, and I leapt out of bed to rescue the speakers ...
Not that much was done to tweak this player, there was far more value in sorting out the power amp side of things, this is where the major battles have been ...
Frank
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I remember the the 741
Remember when Nakamichi came out with a cassette deck that played at half speed but performed better than the full speed! The industry quickly got rid of that!
Played with 339 quad op amps
What I found, was power supply quality, then the rest fell in line
A friend of mine and I, designed and built an AD/DA for the Nakamichi, didn't sound good but worked, might actually have the parts still? This was when program code was put on cassette tape, in the 80's
Hmm, DAC project, among all the others? I think it is how you 'smooth' out the signal that makes it sound 'good' or to your liking... to your ear
I will be in my garage today, searching for old stuff
Remember when Nakamichi came out with a cassette deck that played at half speed but performed better than the full speed! The industry quickly got rid of that!
Played with 339 quad op amps
What I found, was power supply quality, then the rest fell in line
A friend of mine and I, designed and built an AD/DA for the Nakamichi, didn't sound good but worked, might actually have the parts still? This was when program code was put on cassette tape, in the 80's
Hmm, DAC project, among all the others? I think it is how you 'smooth' out the signal that makes it sound 'good' or to your liking... to your ear
I will be in my garage today, searching for old stuff
Phase Linear? I doubt that.
For Kenwood, take a look at http://kenwood.pytalhost.eu/1981/kenwood81-02.jpg . 1981 and onwards, but it didn't really last long.
With some reservations I agree . The source of sound matters . Plug a microphone into a humble system and hear some magic .
My friend has naked Quad ESL 63's ( yikes ) . Even playing 78's is magical . Suddenly there is music and a time machine . It is 1937 and Duke Ellington is there . My mind adds the extra 4 kHz . The amplifier is Marantz 9 with a few upgrades . The turntable Garrard 301 . I would love to have tried your Denon in the system . No idea how well it would have worked ? Has anyone tried a NAD 3020 with them ?
I should add my own ( forgotten ) observation on cheaper amps . My friend was given a pair of 63's . She had $1000 for a system to include Cd . I provided a good CD ( Denon ? ) Rega P3 Goldring 1042 . Cheap and big Yamaha amp . The sound was miserable . Then I tried the turntable . Not a Marantz , however it was very good . I chose the Yamaha as I thought it would not object to the 63's . I feel in my heart the NAD would have been better ?
The Celestion SL6 is worth finding . I didn't like the expensive version . The Audax ceramic tweeter is very good if building something . The Quads seem far better to my ears than all conventional tweeters ( many reasons , not least simplicity and transformer design ) . 57's better ? Perhaps . However 63's image in stereo . 57's have chunks of sound ( so does real life ) . The new ones are outside of my pocket .
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http://www.randallareed.com/photogallery/PhaseLinear_400_Amp.gif
Phase Linear today is not the same!
I also have an old Sansui tube reciever, my Dad's, need to replace the pots, otherwise, nice working condition and his turntable, needs a new cartridge.
Black and white tube television was what I grew up with, so, mono sound...
Grandma's 78's
Today, I like string/horn music - experimenting is the key, the fun of it!
That's why I'm here, to see what you guys are up to! Sounds like fun!
Phase Linear today is not the same!
I also have an old Sansui tube reciever, my Dad's, need to replace the pots, otherwise, nice working condition and his turntable, needs a new cartridge.
Black and white tube television was what I grew up with, so, mono sound...
Grandma's 78's
Today, I like string/horn music - experimenting is the key, the fun of it!
That's why I'm here, to see what you guys are up to! Sounds like fun!
This is exactly correct. Putting aside speakers (where there is no agreement- nor any possibility of agreement- on what constitutes a set of "good" speaker specifications), the best that can be done with electronics, and is routinely done, is to make their presence inaudible. That is, indistinguishable from any other set of stable and non-overloaded electronics with low distortion, flat frequency response, low noise, and appropriate impedances by ear alone (no peeking, truly blind, ears only) and with output indistinguishable from input by ear alone.
That is not the same as "not having any flaws".
What perked my ears was when I was given free tickets to the Philadelphia Harmonics playing at Great-woods MA, when they started Ravel Bolero, I paid attention! I actually ran to my assigned seat, which sort of perked the musicians attention, and ever since, I have never heard anything so wonderful out of any speaker as I did that day!
Tweak all you want, Live is what you strive for, that is what I do, and that is fun!
I like experimenting with the quality of the power, ripple bleed is noticeable, a DC bank would be nice, but out of reality for most. Just never try Gates Cyclon Cells! Poof! They bite!
Tweak all you want, Live is what you strive for, that is what I do, and that is fun!
I like experimenting with the quality of the power, ripple bleed is noticeable, a DC bank would be nice, but out of reality for most. Just never try Gates Cyclon Cells! Poof! They bite!
Disney Hall here is, truly, spectacularly good, especially in the best seats (not on the floor), and the LA Phil, particularly under Salonen, has become a truly world-class orchestra. I had two friends, often with spare tickets, last season. What great good fortune!
Hearing, for example, Also Sprach Zarathustra in Disney with the LA Phil made me very conscious of how remarkably different a piece it was when heard in a good hall, and though I live happily with two-channel, how much is lost in an attempt to reproduce the live experience.
Based on most film scores in 5.1/7.1 I was tempted to disparage multichannel. Not any more, although there is a dearth of software and system setup is a huge challenge.
What I aim for in home listening is to be able to run the system at a volume level which produces an audible intensity that subjectively is equivalent or similar to that experienced live. Which is not to say that I want that all the time, the other half would violently object for a start!! And she already has, quite a bit! Plus, you would be emotionally exhausted after a long stretch ...
Now, it's easy to get a system to run loud, just wind up the volume, but that's not the same thing as intensity of sound, normally. The trick is to have high SPLs produced as cleanly as one gets from live music ... that pulls the trigger in your brain that says, "This is just like the real thing!" ...
Frank
Now, it's easy to get a system to run loud, just wind up the volume, but that's not the same thing as intensity of sound, normally. The trick is to have high SPLs produced as cleanly as one gets from live music ... that pulls the trigger in your brain that says, "This is just like the real thing!" ...
Frank
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Someone said hi fi is about the moment in time also . Also said that the Decca 1959 recording of Peter Grimes is the definitive lesson for recording engineers . The boss of Decca spent big money to record Britten .
Feature - Benjamin Britten conducts the first recording of his masterpiece, Peter Grimes - Gramophone Archive
Feature - Benjamin Britten conducts the first recording of his masterpiece, Peter Grimes - Gramophone Archive
If I close my eyes, can I believe? Of course it depends on the music. A lot of live music I would never tolerate in my house. I have walked out of too many concerts as the sound was so bad. My dream is someday, I will hear a recording of a single classical guitar that sounds like someone sitting ten feet from me. Maybe, but I am not as young as I was and the emphasis is now on portability not quality. I may never reach my dream but it is something to strive for. Instead, I head down to the coffee shop where Bruce pays when I can.
That's relatively straightforward to achieve with current equipment, provided that sufficient, focused effort and attention to detail is put into refining the setup ...
Frank
Probably the best reproduction I ever heard of chamber music, in the sense of "being there", was at Keith O. Johnson's house many years ago, when he lived in the San Fernando Valley. A mutual friend wanted me to meet him so I could see what might happen to me if I kept up my obsessive ways, 
KOJ being about ten years older than I. I was about 28 then.
The playback was of master tapes he'd recorded on his famous three-track machine long used for Reference Recordings in the pre-digital days. The tape heads and bias scheme were of his own design. All of the electronics of course were his. The power amplifiers were in the speakers ("Where they belong!" he said ). The signal cables to the speakers were 300 ohm twinlead and the peak voltages in the vicinity of 100V. All of this he was willing to disclose, but he wouldn't let me see a proprietary subwoofer, behind a curtain. All of the system was balanced from start to finish.
The remark I made after a cello began to play was that I had the distinct impression that were I to move forward and get closer in towards the sources, I'd look down to see rosin from the bowing depositing on my pantleg. Timbres, imaging... It was all there.
Keith remarked that the THD performance per se of his electronics were merely o.k., but I came to learn that one of the things he regarded as crucial was equality of slew rates (this is almost automatic with balanced mode).
When I went to pee and saw the lid off the toilet, I knew at once why. He'd simply been too busy, I couldn't tell how long, to get round to repairing the leaky flapper valve. I'd done something similarly for a while.
KOJ being about ten years older than I. I was about 28 then.The playback was of master tapes he'd recorded on his famous three-track machine long used for Reference Recordings in the pre-digital days. The tape heads and bias scheme were of his own design. All of the electronics of course were his. The power amplifiers were in the speakers ("Where they belong!" he said
). The signal cables to the speakers were 300 ohm twinlead and the peak voltages in the vicinity of 100V. All of this he was willing to disclose, but he wouldn't let me see a proprietary subwoofer, behind a curtain. All of the system was balanced from start to finish.The remark I made after a cello began to play was that I had the distinct impression that were I to move forward and get closer in towards the sources, I'd look down to see rosin from the bowing depositing on my pantleg. Timbres, imaging... It was all there.
Keith remarked that the THD performance per se of his electronics were merely o.k., but I came to learn that one of the things he regarded as crucial was equality of slew rates (this is almost automatic with balanced mode).
When I went to pee and saw the lid off the toilet, I knew at once why. He'd simply been too busy, I couldn't tell how long, to get round to repairing the leaky flapper valve. I'd done something similarly for a while.
"Equality of slew rates" is an odd way of putting it. Could mean several things.
I can agree that if the preamp can do say 40 V/uS, it WOULD be desirable for the power amp to be able to do it as well, just so it doesn't become a bottleneck. But what will you do if you have an ultra fast preamp, capable of say 150 V/uS (never mind whether you actually need that much in real life)?
Or, if your power amp can do say 80 V/uS, while your preamp will do only say 40 V/uS?
But if we look at the real world slew rate figures, the ACTUAL rates we would need for a say full power 20 kHz signal from a 100 Watt amp into 8 Ohms, that's merely something like 7 or 8 V/uS. We go for 40 V/uS only to make sure that the amp will be able to follow virtually any real world signal thrown at it, and some argue that half that is more than enough.
If we assume that we have a full power signal at 20 kHz (which is MOST unlikely with real world music signal), and further assume that while we can't actually hear the overtones as such but can feel them one way or another so we need to double that to 40 kHz, that's still 14 V/uS.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a sworn slew rate lover, my own personal minimum goal is 80 V/uS just for the hell of it - more can't hurt - but in reality, I realize this is much more of a personal whim than real need.
Keith Johnson - isn't that the man who does like 1,000 V/uS in his MOSFET power amps?
I can agree that if the preamp can do say 40 V/uS, it WOULD be desirable for the power amp to be able to do it as well, just so it doesn't become a bottleneck. But what will you do if you have an ultra fast preamp, capable of say 150 V/uS (never mind whether you actually need that much in real life)?
Or, if your power amp can do say 80 V/uS, while your preamp will do only say 40 V/uS?
But if we look at the real world slew rate figures, the ACTUAL rates we would need for a say full power 20 kHz signal from a 100 Watt amp into 8 Ohms, that's merely something like 7 or 8 V/uS. We go for 40 V/uS only to make sure that the amp will be able to follow virtually any real world signal thrown at it, and some argue that half that is more than enough.
If we assume that we have a full power signal at 20 kHz (which is MOST unlikely with real world music signal), and further assume that while we can't actually hear the overtones as such but can feel them one way or another so we need to double that to 40 kHz, that's still 14 V/uS.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a sworn slew rate lover, my own personal minimum goal is 80 V/uS just for the hell of it - more can't hurt - but in reality, I realize this is much more of a personal whim than real need.
Keith Johnson - isn't that the man who does like 1,000 V/uS in his MOSFET power amps?
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