Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

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How could the speaker possibly know that it's distortion and not the wanted signal?

It doesn't have to know anything about the input. We have 2 inputs. One with 0.01% the other one with 0.001% (e.g. 2 signal files amplified by the same amp). If the 2 files sound different, measure the speaker to find out what has changed considerably. First, one driver, next as a complete speaker (more for acoustics).
 
No, the clock is the only place where noise gets integrated, so it's the only place which can generate large 1/f phase noise. Reasonable noise in the distribution circuit will move the noise floor but not the 1/f slope.

Whether or not that matters is another question.

Just like this, the noise floor increases but 1/f and 1/f3 are almost the same of the base clock (blue curve is the base oscillator, pink curve is the sine wave of the base oscillators converted to square wave by a noisy AC04).

But you are losing time explaining that to the one who has miserably failed and does not accept that he has failed (and to his followers).
 

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Proxy for Chris (main judge and organizer): Gerhard, if he accepts.

You can contest whatever you want, I care less than zero about your opinion since you aren't in the list of the smart guys I have posted.

However we have learned anything here, we cannot learn from someone who has miserably failed in building an oscillator.

We have never claimed to have made anything up, so before you throw up your rants read carefully what was written a long time ago, for your info:

Special thanks

We didn't invent anything but we tried to learn from the real masters to develop state of the art devices, so special thanks to:

- George Washington Pierce (January 11, 1872 – August 25, 1956), the American Physicist inventor of the omonymous oscillator (the basis of TWTMC-PPG and TWTMC-PXO oscillators development).
G. W. Pierce - Wikipedia
- Michael M. Driscoll (Baltimore), the American Engineer inventor of the omonymous oscillator (the basis of TWTMC-DRIXO oscillator development).
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-...5-2b86dab28223
- Prof. Jeremy Kenneth Arthur Everard, RF Design Engineer Tsvetan Burtichelov and Keng Ng, University of York, the authors of Ultralow Phase Noise 10-MHz Crystal Oscillators (the basis of the TWTMC-EXO development).
Prof. Jeremy Kenneth Arthur Everard - Research Database, The University of York
Ultralow Phase Noise 10-MHz Crystal Oscillators - Research Database, The University of York
- Bruce Griffiths for his work on Driscoll oscillator and RF design (a great help on TWTMC-DRIXO and oscillators buffer development).
Bruce's Precision Time and Frequency Systems - KO4BB
https://nz.linkedin.com/in/bruce-griffiths-aa064a86 ?????
- Richard K. Karlquist (1951, Minneapolis, MN), American Engineer, for his work on frequency multiplyiing and division (a great help on TWTMC-DBM development).
Richard Karlquist--personal web site)
- Enrico Rubiola (Italy, 1957), researcher with the Politecnico di Torino, guest professor with the University of Parma, Italy, and full professor with the University Henri Poincaré, Nancy, for his work on oscillator phase noise (a great help to understand and cure the phase noise in oscillator circuits).
Enrico Rubiola home page
- Pat Di Giacomo, the "master of clock", while all the people was discussing about the jitter (even measured with a bandwidth suitable for telecommunication devices) he was one of the first to point out the real issue, the close in phase noise of the master clock, the crucial importance of the timing error in the digital to analog conversion (our brain is also able to perceive temporal errors of femto seconds)

And mostly a very special thank to my co-developer Roberto A., who is a very very smart guy.
Without his help it would not have been possible to develop all these devices and with these performances.
We divided the work and we managed to develop all these projects.

The Well Tempered Master Clock - Building a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator

Unlike you and syn08 (who failed miserably) we are humble people.
 
Thanks Gerhard.

It's just what I have said several times, we are merely hobbyist who like to build their devices by themselves (you know how many devices).
We have no commercial interest on this.

And it's absolutely true, with the first GB we have lost money, while with the last GB we are trying to recover the lost money and part of the development cost (tools excluded).
No profit here, IT pay the bill.
 
That goes way too far. I don't think that you are qualified to judge the quality of the oscillators .
No, Gerhard, I think you are quite wrong here, because it is not far enough. Andreas many-level callousness and hateful attitude to other peers here is the only "argument" for using such oscillator for audio purposes, and also to pretend that comparison to the likes from Wenzel et. al are hear-able.

If my understanding is correct, our beer and fun was not yet happening for audio matters. So, you can be more direct to me in this direction. But for RF direction you know that I am fully capable and qualified, at a higher level, to appreciate the science and usage of oscillators with such specifications. Right?
 

TNT

Member
Joined 2003
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That goes way too far. I don't think that you are qualified to judge the quality of
the oscillators, nor could anybody of your proposed team design one at this
phase noise level. This would have been formulated much more explicit if the
two of us hadn't had a beer together and some fun.

The oscillators of Andrea and his Co are absolutely state of the art with regard
to phase noise. The removal of the oven and maybe varicaps for locking are
intended and agreed upon by the kit builder crowd. They add nothing to
this application.

The phase noise IS on par with Wenzel, the crystal limits the performance.
And Wenzel is not the goal to beat, it's Oscilloquarz or the brandnew
resonators from Morion or some English company.

And the only one who constantly talks about rubber tape is Syn08.
I have seen a lot of Andrea's oscs, but rubber is not on the partlist.

Andrea does not run a business. All he did was organizing two group buys,
with loss at least on the first one. We have sold some hard-to-get parts
to each other, that all was true own buying price + postage.

Agree an all except the definition of "business"... if you produce and sell gods or services you do business. If its profitabel or not doesn't matter. So it's just quibbling about the definition of a word. Everything else above I agree on.

//
 
Wow, you talk about Time-nuts like you was the founder and then you think John Miles is the singer and you don't know who is Bruce Griffiths.
No, I am not even a member of Time-Nuts and I do not know who are JM and BG. I do not intend to become a member, being not interested in this specialty.

But you must be hateful or somehow dyslexic to not see that I did not contest the RF results, but only your senseless marketing usage in audio direction for financing your dev costs (tools excluded). Then, being callous with anyone commenting this is not fair nor useful for this forum, in general for the audio market.



I read in your posts, that you still have the amplifier and speaker to develop. Pfoah. Make DIY threads on them as well, use the "humble" help to design, and recover some "dev costs" (tools excluded) from there too. God help us and/or the "useful idiots"...
 
This one is to find the answer why some people can hear that low distortion difference in amplifiers.

Can we hear below 20Hz? I think textbook will not say that no human can hear below 20Hz. But... Low frequencies may generate audible distortion in woofers such that we can hear the higher frequency harmonics of the original signal...

Case: I could easily hear files that supposed to be tones of 10Hz, 12Hz, 14Hz, 16Hz, 18Hz, 20Hz. There was no sign of broken woofer but I wanted to test the theory that a 10Hz signal can "trigger" higher frequencies that are audible so I called my wife and son and we did a blind listening test. My wife could hear 20Hz, my son couldn't. Conclusion: I don't know yet but my ears are still better than my wife and son.

The above is some kind of analogy that can be used to find the "theory" regarding why small difference in amp distortion can be perceived.

That sounds to me as though the woofer is producing a large amount of 2HD which would be expected if it's flapping around at 10Hz?
 
If its profitable or not doesn't matter.

Not legally true in the US. The purpose of a 'business' is to make money, at least most of the time. An activity that never profits, or does not profit enough, is by IRS definition a 'hobby.' Andrea's expenditures on test equipment and other tools make verses any income from groupbuys makes his activity very unlikely to pass the test of being considered a business, at least in the US.
 
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It doesn't have to know anything about the input. We have 2 inputs. One with 0.01% the other one with 0.001% (e.g. 2 signal files amplified by the same amp). If the 2 files sound different, measure the speaker to find out what has changed considerably. First, one driver, next as a complete speaker (more for acoustics).
You need to be more specific, if it's second harmonic distortion it probably wouldn't be audible at either of those levels anyway.
 
No, I am not even a member of Time-Nuts and I do not know who are JM and BG. I do not intend to become a member, being not interested in this specialty.

But you must be hateful or somehow dyslexic to not see that I did not contest the RF results, but only your senseless marketing usage in audio direction for financing your dev costs (tools excluded). Then, being callous with anyone commenting this is not fair nor useful for this forum, in general for the audio market.



I read in your posts, that you still have the amplifier and speaker to develop. Pfoah. Make DIY threads on them as well, use the "humble" help to design, and recover some "dev costs" (tools excluded) from there too. God help us and/or the "useful idiots"...

Yes, it seems that to complete our audio system we also need an amplifier and speakers (as well as the DAC).

Maybe it's better if you join Time-nuts, you can find several smart guys there.

And congratulations on copying and pasting the insults ("useful idiots").
 

TNT

Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
Not legally true in the US. The purpose of a 'business' is to make money, at least most of the time. An activity that never profits, or does not profit enough, is by IRS definition a 'hobby.' Andrea's expenditures on test equipment and other tools make verses any income from groupbuys makes his activity very unlikely to pass the test of being considered a business, at least in the US.

Aha - ok.

//
 
...did not contest the RF results, but only your senseless marketing usage in audio direction...

Andrea's clocks are audibly better than any off-the-shelf clocks I have tried. Doesn't seem to me Andrea is marketing. He tells the truth, his clocks do improve SQ if the dac and the system is good enough not mask the difference. Now, we may argue if the cost is justified by the improvement in SQ, but any idea that he is a fraud (and we know who has a history making that accusation) is false.

Andrea is like many other people who are do what they do because they are extremely enthusiastic about it. Doesn't necessary follow that their enthusiasm is falsely motivated. In fact, I would say that the reason true frauds display false enthusiasm is because they are trying to mimic what true enthusiasts naturally do.
 
Andrea, it will be fair, nice and civilized if you name to us your co-worker "Roberto A." in full name, next to authorship and all full name references.

Until then, at least, you cannot give lessons to anyone. With your age, cannot do that anyway... but still try to observe a minimum of decency.
 
Andrea's clocks are audibly better than any off-the-shelf clocks I have tried. Doesn't seem to me Andrea is marketing. He tells the truth, his clocks do improve SQ if the dac and the system is good enough not mask the difference. Now, we may argue if the cost is justified by the improvement in SQ, but any idea that he is a fraud (and we know who has a history making that accusation) is false.

Andrea is like many other people who are do what they do because they are extremely enthusiastic about it. Doesn't necessary follow that their enthusiasm is falsely motivated. In fact, I would say that the reason true frauds display false enthusiasm is because they are trying to mimic what true enthusiasts naturally do.

Of course, dog does not eat dog.
 
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