How do you set up listening sessions so that only the ears are used when judging?
The point is I am not spending a penny for anything that will not gain me any benefit. All producers and amp designers puts anything to lure buyers, publish measurement, get reviews, testimonies whatever. I am simple person, I listen to a recorded piece I know on whatever setup the seller has. So far (30+ years) I have never want to buy any of the stuff shown.
I don't know, I can only share my experience. During my college years 30+ years ago I built Pass A40 amplifier along with a pair of speakers. Sounded better than any stuff I and my buddies ever heard. Never find the need to buy any ready made amps or speakers afterwards. I found the diy path meets my need better, learn the art, trust my ears and update. Today we have diyAudio, way easier than what I had to go through. No need to reinvent the wheel, more than enough experienced people donating their time to help if anybody is in trouble.
Here in diyaudio, I have to develop a filter to ignore irrelevant posts like very subtle differences heard only by people with special training and hearing acuity akin to Matt Murdock. I also attach a big red flag on individuals spreading nonsense blind trust on measurement to the effect of people losing trust on their own hearing ability, especially when made using violent ways.
Here in diyaudio, I have to develop a filter to ignore irrelevant posts like very subtle differences heard only by people with special training and hearing acuity akin to Matt Murdock. I also attach a big red flag on individuals spreading nonsense blind trust on measurement to the effect of people losing trust on their own hearing ability, especially when made using violent ways.
Hi indra1,
Well, the only thing I can say is that human hearing is good at picking out preferences between two or maybe three things at one time. You can determine if the sound of something really bothers you and store that, but what you can't do is compare things on two different days or if there is a lot of time between comparisons. This is easy with speakers as there are often large differences between them.
The real weakness of a human is the complete lack of a reference. That means we make really lousy instruments. All we can do is store whether we liked or disliked something. Once you get to a point where you can look at some measurements and have some idea of what it might sound like, or what features may sound harsh or whatever, a set of measurements can be your best friend.
But, I always tell people to listen to what they are thinking of buying. Use measurements to eliminate the equipment we know will not sound good, then go listen to that list of narrowed candidates. Saves a lot of time.
I work on a lot of equipment to improve reliability and sound quality. I take "as found" readings, then work on the circuit. #1 is to make sure it is reliable, and fixing design errors will often make it sound better and also lower the noise floor. Once that is done, work starts on improving the sound quality. I use measurements to keep me on track (and listening of course). Finally the last measurements are taken and compared to the "as found" readings. This process teaches you what is likely to not sound good. I am still learning, and always will be learning. I find taking measurements invaluable and as important as listening to my work is.
I'll admit to being very lucky to have the training and aptitude for this work, and I have saved and paid to acquire the equipment I need. I am always buying newer equipment and work hard at being good at what I do. So, I think it puts me at an advantage when it comes to assessing equipment. There are others here that are every bit as good, and better at this than I am. But you learn to gather all the information you can and use it. Learning how different measurements apply to what you hear is another effective tool you can use.
One of the first things I realized is that you can't always trust what you hear at any given time. Sometimes you can. The question is, when is it that you can trust what you are hearing? I still don't know, so I only trust what I hear for comparisons, or if something is doing something that doesn't sound good or correct. I think I am striking about as fair and balanced a viewpoint as I can.
-Chris
Well, the only thing I can say is that human hearing is good at picking out preferences between two or maybe three things at one time. You can determine if the sound of something really bothers you and store that, but what you can't do is compare things on two different days or if there is a lot of time between comparisons. This is easy with speakers as there are often large differences between them.
The real weakness of a human is the complete lack of a reference. That means we make really lousy instruments. All we can do is store whether we liked or disliked something. Once you get to a point where you can look at some measurements and have some idea of what it might sound like, or what features may sound harsh or whatever, a set of measurements can be your best friend.
But, I always tell people to listen to what they are thinking of buying. Use measurements to eliminate the equipment we know will not sound good, then go listen to that list of narrowed candidates. Saves a lot of time.
I work on a lot of equipment to improve reliability and sound quality. I take "as found" readings, then work on the circuit. #1 is to make sure it is reliable, and fixing design errors will often make it sound better and also lower the noise floor. Once that is done, work starts on improving the sound quality. I use measurements to keep me on track (and listening of course). Finally the last measurements are taken and compared to the "as found" readings. This process teaches you what is likely to not sound good. I am still learning, and always will be learning. I find taking measurements invaluable and as important as listening to my work is.
I'll admit to being very lucky to have the training and aptitude for this work, and I have saved and paid to acquire the equipment I need. I am always buying newer equipment and work hard at being good at what I do. So, I think it puts me at an advantage when it comes to assessing equipment. There are others here that are every bit as good, and better at this than I am. But you learn to gather all the information you can and use it. Learning how different measurements apply to what you hear is another effective tool you can use.
One of the first things I realized is that you can't always trust what you hear at any given time. Sometimes you can. The question is, when is it that you can trust what you are hearing? I still don't know, so I only trust what I hear for comparisons, or if something is doing something that doesn't sound good or correct. I think I am striking about as fair and balanced a viewpoint as I can.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
My choice is made based on what I want and don't want. I use the gears to enjoy recorded stuff that I like, not to gain a bragging right nor to impress others. Makes my life simpler. A difference apparent to me only on A B test is miniscule, not going to give me significant boost on benefit. I have also measured that lowest amp THD does not correspond to lowest acoustic THD.
Yes, measurement is very important. But the important stuff that matters for me are seldom shown by the producers. No FFT, THD shown at high power level I never ever need, no phase shift vs frequency, no stability assessment on difficult load, no reliability test data, no distortion figure on the acoustic output. They only like to give marketing related bling stuff designed to impress, Big Deal.
I also find many of the smart are used by the big producers in many fields to advance their agenda. I need to be doubly alert on my toes digesting what they say, it is not easy to read the true motive of the high profiles. I trust down to earth guys like you, Scott Wurcer and Nelson Pass a lot more.
My choice is made based on what I want and don't want. I use the gears to enjoy recorded stuff that I like, not to gain a bragging right nor to impress others. Makes my life simpler. A difference apparent to me only on A B test is miniscule, not going to give me significant boost on benefit. I have also measured that lowest amp THD does not correspond to lowest acoustic THD.
Yes, measurement is very important. But the important stuff that matters for me are seldom shown by the producers. No FFT, THD shown at high power level I never ever need, no phase shift vs frequency, no stability assessment on difficult load, no reliability test data, no distortion figure on the acoustic output. They only like to give marketing related bling stuff designed to impress, Big Deal.
I also find many of the smart are used by the big producers in many fields to advance their agenda. I need to be doubly alert on my toes digesting what they say, it is not easy to read the true motive of the high profiles. I trust down to earth guys like you, Scott Wurcer and Nelson Pass a lot more.
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I don't think this can stand without some qualifying, unless I've misunderstood you. I'd cite 'the real thing' as an awfully good reference, except that its application scope is limited. More often we are trying to hear a specific distortion. Often it is drowning in a sea of other distortions. Some kinds are near impossible for us to comprehend when listening. Others are dependent on circumstances and we have to go looking for them.
Hi Allen,
Okay, so when can you hear the real thing, then audition some other piece of gear? Can you take the real thing experience with you when you go out to listen to gear?
As I stated earlier, and I don't need a qualifier, you have no internal reference. You can't take the real experience with you as it fades within an hour. Like I said, a human doesn't have a built-in reference and the auditory memory is relatively poor. An instrument has a DC voltage reference, or a frequency reference - or both. These days a good instrument constantly refers to the references and auto-calibrates. Humans don't have a reference and cannot auto-calibrate.
I think my statement stands on its own just fine.
-Chris
Okay, so when can you hear the real thing, then audition some other piece of gear? Can you take the real thing experience with you when you go out to listen to gear?
As I stated earlier, and I don't need a qualifier, you have no internal reference. You can't take the real experience with you as it fades within an hour. Like I said, a human doesn't have a built-in reference and the auditory memory is relatively poor. An instrument has a DC voltage reference, or a frequency reference - or both. These days a good instrument constantly refers to the references and auto-calibrates. Humans don't have a reference and cannot auto-calibrate.
I think my statement stands on its own just fine.
-Chris
For the vast majority of cases yes, there are too many kinds of distortion and each is unique.
And I agree that you couldn't take it with you, but comparison to the real thing, when it applies, is not learned and remembered per se.. it's more instinctive and felt. If you look back at it you might notice a lack of listening fatigue (having thought about it), an instant acceptance of what you had heard.
And I agree that you couldn't take it with you, but comparison to the real thing, when it applies, is not learned and remembered per se.. it's more instinctive and felt. If you look back at it you might notice a lack of listening fatigue (having thought about it), an instant acceptance of what you had heard.
I won't hold my breath. Nobody dares to, causing John Atkinson lose his job is a serious crime.
I wonder if there's any significance in him being listed under Entertainment:
John Atkinson - Wikipedia
John Atkinson - Wikipedia
I have never worked in a position where a marketing skill is needed. But what if you do? I'll believe you will resign but if that is your only background you'll probably be in trouble to find a job that suits your moral better (May be the situation is a lot better in your country).
Being honest can be very painful. I have experienced this since I was a teenager. That very first experience was the one that hurt so badly. I was the best but I refused to fake a stupid information so I was the only one who didn't get that most honored medal.
Same experiences repeat itself every now and then but I'm fine
This FUD thing doesn't only exist or have an effect in audio or in Marketing department. I have two similar experiences working for companies that provide software to other company/country. I couldn't lie to the customers. My boss knew me that he wouldn't let me face the clients. Still, one day I was gonna be sued by the company I was working for. The client protected me. Said that if I were sued, he would also sue the company I was working for.
I don't know how you get by.
Not an excuse. The higher our moral standard, the more the number of "problematic" people that we met. They can be our bosses, our friends, our families... And that might be the time where we start to "understand/accept" them. I mean, to hate the action but not the individual.
I assume that everyone must be responsible with their own "safety". To not become the prey/victim. But sometimes people just have too much money, which is probably from not paying the tax properly. You sell to them the bye-bee and I don't care. Their life could have been better than mine why should I worry about them.
Sorry for having such a low standard for caring the others...
If auditory memory is relatively poor, how is it I recognize an actor's voice when I hear a random clip on YT (for example) ? How would I do that without an 'internal reference' ? Certainly my memory for voices does not 'fade within an hour' based on my own experience.
Just get yourself a second hand snare drum from the flea market and a pair of drum sticks. Now take one of the drum sticks and tie it in an upright position to the drum, drill a hole in the top and by using a screw, fasten the other stick so it is possible to strike the drum. A long line makes it possible to remote control and repeat the same struck of the drum. I made it with a weight so that one releases the stick and you get the same speed and force used at each strike and a rubber band so that only one struck is heard.
Make a recording and replay it and try to EQ and whatever to make the replay really close to the real reference. You will see how hard it is - if not seemingly impossible. Such a simple sound but yet so rich and powerful.
The good thing with the drum is that it will sound the same in 2 weeks and never get tired.
I did this and was humbled. Recording is hard - here one soon understand the problem with mic distance to sound source vs room addition at rec and play.
Try it by all means if you have the chance.
//
Make a recording and replay it and try to EQ and whatever to make the replay really close to the real reference. You will see how hard it is - if not seemingly impossible. Such a simple sound but yet so rich and powerful.
The good thing with the drum is that it will sound the same in 2 weeks and never get tired.
I did this and was humbled. Recording is hard - here one soon understand the problem with mic distance to sound source vs room addition at rec and play.
Try it by all means if you have the chance.
//
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