As I said, a nice opportunity to put in a transformer (secondary will act as grid choke; winding ratio primary to secondary could be optimized for the application).
Suppose a circuit. Suddenly the designer of said circuit realises that he had included at the input of the signal path an unnecessary valve and an unnecessary cap. What should he do first? Remove the valve or remove the cap.
In the interest of simplicity I woud remove the valve.......
That's why prototypes exist , and mostly never put into production
Once you have learned how best to use them, rather than throwing them in at random, you will realise how silly the original question was.
Before questioning conventional solutions, it is wise to take the trouble to understand them so you become aware of their limitations and the reasons for their compromises. All circuits have compromises; you have to choose which ones you prefer and why. Most unconventional circuits have worse performance (in some respects) than conventional ones. The reason why conventional circuits are conventional is that they represent a good balance of compromise and stand the test of time.
New exciting stuff is rarely new - someone probably already thought of it 60 years ago, and may have discarded it because it didn't really work or because it required techniques not then available. Stuff which initially excites may, in time, go on to annoy.
Before questioning conventional solutions, it is wise to take the trouble to understand them so you become aware of their limitations and the reasons for their compromises. All circuits have compromises; you have to choose which ones you prefer and why. Most unconventional circuits have worse performance (in some respects) than conventional ones. The reason why conventional circuits are conventional is that they represent a good balance of compromise and stand the test of time.
New exciting stuff is rarely new - someone probably already thought of it 60 years ago, and may have discarded it because it didn't really work or because it required techniques not then available. Stuff which initially excites may, in time, go on to annoy.
If you actually read the initial question I freely admit it was odd.
Following your line of reasoning DIY is a silly exercise in building stuff other people already thought of. The proven solutions are gold and new thoughts are not needed.
If you don't have anything productive to add you can go be a troll somewhere else.
I was simply asking about the sonic properties of caps vs. tubes.
Being lectured in the futility of comparative resoning was not on the curriculum.
Looking at common amp-solutions there are not seldom several tube stages and no-one seams to mind.
Insert a cap and people start shifting in their seats.
I guess one could refrase it and say: Are caps really that bad? No-one seems to mind hooking up 2,3,.. or more tubes (transistors) in a row.
Following your line of reasoning DIY is a silly exercise in building stuff other people already thought of. The proven solutions are gold and new thoughts are not needed.
If you don't have anything productive to add you can go be a troll somewhere else.
I was simply asking about the sonic properties of caps vs. tubes.
Being lectured in the futility of comparative resoning was not on the curriculum.
Looking at common amp-solutions there are not seldom several tube stages and no-one seams to mind.
Insert a cap and people start shifting in their seats.
I guess one could refrase it and say: Are caps really that bad? No-one seems to mind hooking up 2,3,.. or more tubes (transistors) in a row.
So I am a stagnant troll? Thanks for your kind words.
Most DIY is an exercise in building stuff other people already thought of, just as mountaineering is mainly about climbing geographical features which others (including the locals) have already been up. Some DIY is about building stuff which other people have already found does not work too well. I never said DIY is silly. I enjoy DIY, including changing existing circuits, but I do try to understand what I am modifying.
I never claimed new thoughts are not needed, just that genuinely new thoughts are rare. What I do say is that it helps to understand the old thoughts first. Most people, but not all, questioning the old thoughts do so from ignorance. They reject what they do not understand.
Caps, properly used, are good. So are valves. Badly used, both can degrade the signal.
Most DIY is an exercise in building stuff other people already thought of, just as mountaineering is mainly about climbing geographical features which others (including the locals) have already been up. Some DIY is about building stuff which other people have already found does not work too well. I never said DIY is silly. I enjoy DIY, including changing existing circuits, but I do try to understand what I am modifying.
I never claimed new thoughts are not needed, just that genuinely new thoughts are rare. What I do say is that it helps to understand the old thoughts first. Most people, but not all, questioning the old thoughts do so from ignorance. They reject what they do not understand.
Caps, properly used, are good. So are valves. Badly used, both can degrade the signal.
S0rry about that, I guess I'm having a bad day.
I shouldn't have taken it out on you.
You are absolutely correct in what you are saying. Understanding the basics is key to understanding advanced features.
No need to invent the wheel a second time...
My question was meant as a comparrison on the degenerative properties related to audio. In my question I assume a well designed circuit.
Like I mentioned in my last post multiple tube stages are common and everyone is fine with that but as soon as you throw a cap into the equation people start being bothered.
Not having the necessary equipment and funds to do actual irl comparrisons I figured I could get some opinions.
Are caps really all that bad and tubes all that great?
Or is this an example of ignorant people falling for the media hype?
I shouldn't have taken it out on you.
You are absolutely correct in what you are saying. Understanding the basics is key to understanding advanced features.
No need to invent the wheel a second time...
My question was meant as a comparrison on the degenerative properties related to audio. In my question I assume a well designed circuit.
Like I mentioned in my last post multiple tube stages are common and everyone is fine with that but as soon as you throw a cap into the equation people start being bothered.
Not having the necessary equipment and funds to do actual irl comparrisons I figured I could get some opinions.
Are caps really all that bad and tubes all that great?
Or is this an example of ignorant people falling for the media hype?
IMHO the main thing in DIY is that constructing something yourself gives extra subjective value. You put something of yourself in it.
To judge a modification is very risky: for instance once you changed a capacitor you are ready to hear a difference, that is how it works psychologically.
Apology accepted. We all have bad days!
It might have helped if you had explained something of the thinking behind your question. For every useful component or technique, there is someone who says it is vital and any circuit not employing it is necessarily bad, and someone else who says that it kills all the music and anyone who uses it must be deaf. Caps, resistors, valves, transformers, transistors, NFB - you name it, someone will take sides. The strange thing about DIY audio (and some commercial stuff too) is that any idea, however daft, will have a loyal fan club who misquote some guru out of context. The guru will, hopefully, realise the limits and caveats to his view; his followers usually won't. The converse is true too: any idea, however good and sound, will have people who doubt it.
PS by "modifying" I mean changing the circuit. I could still be fooled by the placebo effect, but at least there is a fair chance I can measure or calculate a genuine change in the signal.
It might have helped if you had explained something of the thinking behind your question. For every useful component or technique, there is someone who says it is vital and any circuit not employing it is necessarily bad, and someone else who says that it kills all the music and anyone who uses it must be deaf. Caps, resistors, valves, transformers, transistors, NFB - you name it, someone will take sides. The strange thing about DIY audio (and some commercial stuff too) is that any idea, however daft, will have a loyal fan club who misquote some guru out of context. The guru will, hopefully, realise the limits and caveats to his view; his followers usually won't. The converse is true too: any idea, however good and sound, will have people who doubt it.
PS by "modifying" I mean changing the circuit. I could still be fooled by the placebo effect, but at least there is a fair chance I can measure or calculate a genuine change in the signal.
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The original question is very strange since the two have very, very different properties. I fail to see any situation where the two are interchangeable.
If you are referring to a situation where you can desing a circuit towards a given "design criteria" using one extra valve to avoid a cap or vice versa there are probably 100 other considerations that are just as, or more important.
/Olof
If you are referring to a situation where you can desing a circuit towards a given "design criteria" using one extra valve to avoid a cap or vice versa there are probably 100 other considerations that are just as, or more important.
/Olof
The capacitor in question is undefined as to it's type, value or function. The valve/tube is also left undefined.
Capacitors and valves do differ fundamentally in that a capacitor is a "stand-alone" device requiring only it's insertion into a circuit to function whereas valves are usually inserted into a socket. A heater circuit is used, an anode voltage is applied and capacitors
p) may be used to bypass cathode resistance or decouple dc. Surely this makes a valve less of a component, more of a sub circuit.We are not comparing like with like here.
I agree with your thoughts on electronics, but a quick look at the history of mountaineering will show that the locals were usually too busy scrabbling existence from a harsh environment risk their lives climbing to the top of the local mountains. (Alps, Himalaya, for example). When the rich tourist sportsmen appeared with cash in hand the locals took more interest in getting to the top and climbing routes for prestige.
Back to the topic:
Isn't this discussion mostly based on the idea that the 'straighter' the 'signal path', the better? The most extreme version of this is in the gainclone world where people measure the signal path in mm., with the shortest being best......
That idea doesn't make much sense to mel - for audio gear. If you are pushing the limits of high-speed computing, perhaps it makes sense. For audio, inserting an appropriate cap to protect my gear doesn't bother me at all.
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