Rod Elliott on GainCard and others

Status
Not open for further replies.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
I was browing around at his site, and here is a link to an article there:

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell8.htm#german

It is a fun reading, especially in light of the recent discussions here on resistor sound and sonic resonance, etc.

Some quotables:

On resistor sound:
"What drivel - this implies that these components are either microphonic or frequency dependent under normal audio operating conditions. They are not (apart from the normal capacitive reactance effects, which are well known). "

On the positive reviews on gaincard:
"The lunatic who wrote the review is completely, utterly out of his tree. That any magazine would publish such blatant rubbish is reprehensible in the extreme, although to his credit the reviewer did point out that the power ICs used can be bought from Farnell's (a major British component supplier) for about 5 Pounds each! "

On damping / resonance / vibration and their sonic impact:
"Vibration and electricity do NOT come from the same energy. They are both energy in their own right, but different forms of energy. One does not automatically create the other - this requires a transducer (by definition, a device to convert one form of energy into another). "

On the short signal path and low component count:
"So what? The signal will still have to pass through a metre or more of interconnects, has already travelled through maybe 100 metres of cables in the studio. They seem to have conveniently "forgotten" the number of components in the power opamp in the component count. "

On filtering caps:
"As for "If energy supply depends on the capacity of filter/condensers, you can easily lose the freshness of sound" - what on earth is that supposed to mean? Where else are they getting their energy from - the moon? "

On the Gaincard name:
"Gaincard indeed - try Gainmoney instead! "

I in particular couldn't stop laughing reading his Power Humpty / Power Dumpty comments. The dude is funny, :).

But I will agree with him on a lot of the BS around some of the opamp discussions here. the gainclones are good electronic projects to work on. That's it. I have built two based on the National chips and TI chips and they perform well but not well enough for me to replace my Parasound or an old trusty Kenwood stereo receiver.

Just some fun reading for all gainclone fanatics, :)
 
Hi!

About influences of stuff like signal length, cable material etc. there are already enough discussions on this board.

What I learned from those discussions is at least one thing: That the people really believing in such material / effects making a difference will never convince the non-believers and vice versa.

R. Elliot is know to take a very "down-to-earth" approach to hifi, and you either take the same road or you don't (or, like me, somewhere in between). For example, capacitance in power supplies (even for his 300W subwoofer amplifier he says that using more than 2 * 10000 uF would be a waste of money), resistor and capacitor materials and so on.

But since his designs are at least reasonably good, even high-enders who believe in parts / materials / ... making a difference can use his stuff in order to try implementing something better, by substituting parts, fine-tuning circuits etc.

And that he accuses 47labs of shameless money-making is right for me, that they are not the only ones out there doing this is widely known (in another field, take a look at real Rolex watches in comparison to SWISS made replicas - which still cost about 2000 $ - even an expert takes a lot of time to tell the difference (since there really is nearly no difference at all), so the rest of those 15000 $ such a watch costs is for the brand alone...

So, let each other live - Rod in his place in the market, 47labs in their's, even Peter in his...

Trying to run a business these days is hard enough as it is...


Bye,

Arndt
 
Re: Rod Elliott

Hi Guys

As someone who lives in the same city as Rod and has crossed swords with him (a slight exxageration), may I say that Rod is a natural skeptic. But I do say that he has a solid background in teaching and is of the 'old school'.

A very good friend of mine, Val, knows Rod much better than I do. According to Val, IF you can make a good case with Rod (and you'd better be up to it) then Rod is not altogether quite as hard set as he might seem.

Certainly Rod knows about my product, the JLTi Hybrid GC, and when I say, with Val's backing, that it ain't half bad (in fact better than that) then I believe Rod appreciates we're not all that mad.

Also, I've got to give Rod his due, he has a right to question, and sometimes he is actually right. I have past experience that tells me that you can soemtimes learn from people, even when you often don't agree with them on many things. Rod is that type of person.

Joe R.
 
I love Rods site, and have learn't nearly everything technical that I know from it. I am using his passive baffle step correction circuit to great effect, and have also built his project 72 Gaincard.

However I would agree with the last post in saying that he is set in his ways and is a measurements man. He has set his face against tube amps and the Zen approach, both of which would be hard to justify if you have heard the magic (despite their measured shortcomings).

I love the man for his ability to cut through the BS and to deliver real knowledge in a simple way, but I take all of his grand pronouncments with a large pinch of salt.

I do however, highly recommend anyone who is struggling with technical issues to pay his site a visit.

Shoog
 
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Peter Daniel said:
He was correct on two accounts at least. That

it is what else he is right on that is interesting, :). How about his comments on resonance / vibration and good sounding resistors, for example.


Peter Daniel said:


I didn't noticed any of the above in the linked article.


you need to look a little bit harder then, :)

Seriously, I like my gainclone, as much as anything else I have made. as someone who had played with the stk's, tda2003 and 2030 from years ago, I was skeptical initially as how good the gainclone would sound. if you recall, I asked the question a month or so ago, and was told to build one. I built two. It was quite a surprise to me that this thing indeed sounds much better I had expected. power opamps have come a long way in the last 10-15 years.

I also experimented with my gainclones (mostly types of resistors, different values of resistors and caps). I noticed no experience that I could tell. Yes, it could be due to the fact that I am half deaf, :).

I also find it funny to push the gainclone above and beyond what it is. The fact that 47Lab or Peter is selling it for thousands of dollars doesn't by itself assure anyone of us that this thing will sound great. My Parasound and Kenwood beat the gainclones hands down, for example. Rod's article gives you some indication how "silly" some of the comments / reviews (and in my view some of the comments made here with regards to the gainclone) are.

No matter how avid of a fan we are, let's not push the gainclone above and beyond what it is. the gainclones are good amps, but there are better ones out there.
 
Re: Re: Rod Elliott

Konnichiwa,

millwood said:


he does present a lot of convincing arguments, using facts, logic nad science.

you can not say the same about many of his critics, right?

You made me laugh SO HARD, my belly hurts.

FACTS? LOGIC? SCIENCE? I mean we ARE talking about Rod Elliott here, yes?

EVERYTHING he has put out in his comments is not even hearsay, but read/type. He NEVER had any of the gear he bashes in hand. He has not made any serious product that is sold through a retail cahin and done the homework on pricing etc.


Joe Rasmussen said:
Hi Guys

As someone who lives in the same city as Rod and has crossed swords with him (a slight exxageration), may I say that Rod is a natural skeptic. But I do say that he has a solid background in teaching and is of the 'old school'.


His "Old School" is so old that5 when I pressed him once he was forced to admit to not having a formal, academic electronic eductaion. As much as I respect "self thought" guys, halve of the guff he spouts would not be written if he actually had a clue. Lastly, his habit to present commonly known and other peoples circuits on his pages WITHOUT aknowledging the origininators or sources and passing it all off as his "own" work cheeses me off no end.

When he starts to make sure he knows what he speaks of and when starts to give credit for the work to those who done the work, I might be tempted to take this maybe a little serious. Untill then I only see ignorance, inflated ego and ill will to others who have success.

Sayonara
 
Re: Re: Re: Rod Elliott

Kuei Yang Wang said:
His "Old School" is so old that5 when I pressed him once he was forced to admit to not having a formal, academic electronic eductaion [sic].
When an "argument" degenerates into personal attacks on one's educational background, you have to wonder if there is anything else backing it up. I've heard the "I'm an engineer and you're not, so I must be right" statement before and what it really meant was, "I've got no confidence in my own abilities so I'll use my degree to cover it up."
Rod is actually quite favorable of the chip amp. A quote from him:
"From testing the prototype boards, I was a little more critical of everything than previously, and I have to revise my previous statement. The sound quality is excellent! As long as the protection circuitry is never allowed to operate, the performance is exemplary in all respects."
I think his problem is with the hype and black-magic crap that is used to sell stuff at exorbitant prices. Peter's amp does not have an outrageous price tag like some.
I've built a few chip amps, and they sounded pretty good. Easy for beginners. But for me, it's time to do, as Nelson says, "real DIY".
 
Ahem, Kuei Yang Wang, you do not have to "press" Rod to reveal that he does not have a formal electronics education, in fact, he already admitted so in his website.

Let's be honest with all of our own inflated egos and self righteousness, who is willing to share so much with the general public for free? Well, you can say that it's free publicity, but doesn't our beloved NP falls into the same boat with this assumption?

I am an Electrical Engineer and also a self-confessed Hi-Fi buff. I appreciate good designs and will tolerate most of what the golden eared circle dishes out, but there are times where one has to ask how much can one actually hear, another few more zeros after the decimal point.

I guess that an old-type/old school guy like me still has to use the so-called double-blind comparison as my ultimate weapon. And be flamed for my views....... I know what I hear, and so do all of you.......
 
EVERYTHING he has put out in his comments is not even hearsay, but read/type. He NEVER had any of the gear he bashes in hand. He has not made any serious product that is sold through a retail cahin and done the homework on pricing etc

and ...

Untill then I only see ignorance, inflated ego and ill will to others who have success.

I'll let the quotes speak for themselves.
 
I dont think its appropriate to bash another indivual here....despite his education this indivual has an interest in audio and has shared his knowledge and time to a good website.
His point of views are his own and he has the right to say what the hell he wants on his web site....if you dont like it dont go there..thats the bottom line.
We all have our preferences on everything in life and the forums are to convey them and ask questions and give knowledge on what we know....when I see negative attitudes it makes me think that our society is digressive and not compassionate enough to value other peoples efforts.

DIRT®
 
Konnichiwa,

JOE DIRT® said:
I dont think its appropriate to bash another indivual here....despite his education this indivual has an interest in audio and has shared his knowledge and time to a good website.
His point of views are his own and he has the right to say what the hell he wants on his web site....if you dont like it dont go there..thats the bottom line.

I do not just object to Mr Elliotts views. Many of the circuits on his web-site are simply generic ones cribbed from a number of the basic Electronic Books or application notes (including at times certain "quirky" circuit touches or unusual values), yet he fails to aknowledge the sources and presents in effect other people work as his own and then proceeds to sell PCB's for these on a "for profit" basis.

That to me is ethically not a nice behaviour. When then the same individual who operates in such a manner for his profit and self aggrandisation starts quite rudely and often uninformed to criticise others, irregardless of the actual item being criticised (be it the Gaincard, Final Labs Amp, C37 Lacquer or cables) it is in my view not apropriate for that individual to do so.

Mr Elliot is welcome to hold any views he likes. He is especially welcome to the views he has often discussed and promoted (as they are usually by far to simplistic, in direct contradiction to basic electronic theory and ultimatly false), I do not want them.

However, IF I go and criticise others for simply making and selling a product that I consider overpriced I should make sure that I have my facts right and that I stand on clean moral highground.

And it is my main point that until Mr Elliot cleans up his act and fully aknowledges his sources in his Articles he is in a low and messy morass, not on high ground, morally. Of course, it may be expected that he who stands deep in the swamp will start throwing mud....

Sayonara
 
I don´t think likewise that Rod Elliot invented something entirely new which also doesn´t claim.
He experiments and edits circuits to his likes and in quite a few articles he also mentions the original authors.
What he does to DIY, I don´t think I need to tell you.
Also not, that a lot of people with quite a technical background like and build "his" circuits.
His PCB´s are also everthing else than overpriced.

I think you should really calm down a bit and stop throwing mud yourself Mr.Goodbye.

Cheers
Jens
 
While I am not technically qualified enough to pass comment on Rod Elliot's views and his designs (or at least the ones he has on his site), I feel that it is only fair to point out that he has put an enormous amount of work into his website which has provided many people with a lot of help over the past few years.

For sheer content, it is probably the number one DIY hi-fi site and for that at least I am very grateful to him.

Everybody is entitled to their views, and of course others are entiltled to challenge those views but let's not get too critical of somebody who has given an awful lot to the DIY hi-fi world.

Almost without exception I have found hi-fi DIYers to be a very friendly and helpful community and I hope that it stays that way.

Those of us who know the Aussies well, know that just as they play sport, they argue to win but there's little animosity in their arguments, and mostly it's just for the fun of it.

So come on guys, let's support those that give us so much (and I'll certainly include K Y Jelly in that group ;) ) and be a little less personal in our debates. After all, if we all agreed about everything, these forums wouldn't be half so interesting. :nod:
 
Rod Elliot isn't the only one.

When I read the review of the Final Labs stuff in Stereophile, I too was taken aback by the blatant "garbage justified by gobledygook" and poor engineering and construciton of the product. The fact that it could be recommended for anyone who hasn't got a stock of thousands of C cells they can't get rid of left me mortified. I never did write in my objections to Stereophile, but several others did.

So what is Elliot saying that he can't back up? How about an example or two of Mr Elliot's oversimplified analysis?

halve of the guff he spouts would not be written if he actually had a clue.

Really? Which half?

Chris
 
Status
Not open for further replies.