jh6you said:
there is a strong belief amongst certain fanatics (whose doctrine shall remain nameless) that one should diet on dirt and nothing else.
How much are you willing to pay for it? do you trust it?
People can believe whatever they want to believe. It is upto each of us to rationally figure out what we follow and what you don't. Just because there is a belief doesn't mean you have to believe in it, not to mention to preach it.
I have just read all three pages of this thread with some alarm.
Sayonara's comments were uncharitable, and personal. There is no need for that, as words do wound, particularly in a public forum. And all forums are inevitably judged on the courtesy with which the members inter-relate.
I have had many dealings with Rod Elliott and found him to be intellectually rigorous, completely honest, and of strong belief. Thank God for that, there is so much BS in hifi it's a breath of fresh air, and I admire him for it.
I approached him a couple of years ago to place my AKSA amplifier on his site. He responded with warmth and enthusiasm, gave full acknowledgment and even modified his policy about full and complete circuit schematics to meet my request for some protection of the IP. Subsequently, when my early version AKSA boards were all sold, he withdrew the project from his website so that I could sell the the update circuit boards exclusively from my own website. That is honourable, fair, and rational. Furthermore, I cannot understand any criticism of his site as it has been of immeasurable help to countless thousands of Hifi enthusiasts the world over, and this is something Rod has done tirelessly over a fair period at no charge to his viewers.
I should address the cost of his pcbs, a vexed issue I can see.
First, in any venture, the cost of doing business usually pans out to be at least three times more than budgeted by the novice. There are salaries; PC, laser printer and telecoms expenses; there are tax compliance expenses, there are advertising expenses, there are motor vehicle expenses, there are inventory expenses, and the list goes on. Your only source of income is sales, nothing else. If you believe that you need only purchase commodities, and onsell them with a 10% markup, you will quickly go broke. Generally you need to at least double commodity costs, and sometimes triple them, to make a go of it. The friend who approaches you to buy your product expecting to pay 10% more than you paid for the content is a naive fool. These oncosts are the single biggest reason the failure rate of start-up businesses is so very high. Unfortunately ignorance of the business environment is common amongst hobbyists of all persuasions, but it merely reflects that fact that hobbyists are not in business themselves and so do not fully understand the realities. I think Rod's pcb costs are more than reasonable by international standards, and when you consider the intellectual property, regardless of its origin, is offered at no charge, you are doing bloody well. And as for attribution, I believe Rod is pretty good in this connection, and ALL of his circuits are public domain in any case...... I seek to keep my products out of the public domain for commercial reasons, and he respected that wish without qualification.
On the matter of education. I too am not a qualified EE. I hold a Masters in BIT, a degree in Education majoring in English Literature for God's sake, and a secondary Science/Maths teaching Diploma. On the basis of my education I would make a lousy audio designer. In my own belief (and this is risky stuff!) I am a good audio designer, but I say that because I have served my dues, and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on R&D, with my own iron, components, test bed, pcb designs and CRO. It is eminently possible to be 'self-thought', as has been so fetchingly described, and still be effective. I think club membership and educational qualifications are absurd yardsticks, and would point out that some of the world's greatest engineering achievers were largely auto-didacts. The secrets to high achievement are not just high intelligence and good qualifications, they necessarily MUST include passion for the field, and perseverance - plain, hard sweat. I have known thousands of highly intelligent, but unfocussed and indulgent people with much more education than the average. The only ones who ever amount to anything are those who have genuine passion and work hard. Rod falls in this category, and I defend him unreservedly.
Now, Sayonara, your comments are unkind, personal, and offensive. Have you fielded a retail product? Is this indeed relevant?
Cheers,
Hugh
Sayonara's comments were uncharitable, and personal. There is no need for that, as words do wound, particularly in a public forum. And all forums are inevitably judged on the courtesy with which the members inter-relate.
I have had many dealings with Rod Elliott and found him to be intellectually rigorous, completely honest, and of strong belief. Thank God for that, there is so much BS in hifi it's a breath of fresh air, and I admire him for it.
I approached him a couple of years ago to place my AKSA amplifier on his site. He responded with warmth and enthusiasm, gave full acknowledgment and even modified his policy about full and complete circuit schematics to meet my request for some protection of the IP. Subsequently, when my early version AKSA boards were all sold, he withdrew the project from his website so that I could sell the the update circuit boards exclusively from my own website. That is honourable, fair, and rational. Furthermore, I cannot understand any criticism of his site as it has been of immeasurable help to countless thousands of Hifi enthusiasts the world over, and this is something Rod has done tirelessly over a fair period at no charge to his viewers.
I should address the cost of his pcbs, a vexed issue I can see.
First, in any venture, the cost of doing business usually pans out to be at least three times more than budgeted by the novice. There are salaries; PC, laser printer and telecoms expenses; there are tax compliance expenses, there are advertising expenses, there are motor vehicle expenses, there are inventory expenses, and the list goes on. Your only source of income is sales, nothing else. If you believe that you need only purchase commodities, and onsell them with a 10% markup, you will quickly go broke. Generally you need to at least double commodity costs, and sometimes triple them, to make a go of it. The friend who approaches you to buy your product expecting to pay 10% more than you paid for the content is a naive fool. These oncosts are the single biggest reason the failure rate of start-up businesses is so very high. Unfortunately ignorance of the business environment is common amongst hobbyists of all persuasions, but it merely reflects that fact that hobbyists are not in business themselves and so do not fully understand the realities. I think Rod's pcb costs are more than reasonable by international standards, and when you consider the intellectual property, regardless of its origin, is offered at no charge, you are doing bloody well. And as for attribution, I believe Rod is pretty good in this connection, and ALL of his circuits are public domain in any case...... I seek to keep my products out of the public domain for commercial reasons, and he respected that wish without qualification.
On the matter of education. I too am not a qualified EE. I hold a Masters in BIT, a degree in Education majoring in English Literature for God's sake, and a secondary Science/Maths teaching Diploma. On the basis of my education I would make a lousy audio designer. In my own belief (and this is risky stuff!) I am a good audio designer, but I say that because I have served my dues, and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on R&D, with my own iron, components, test bed, pcb designs and CRO. It is eminently possible to be 'self-thought', as has been so fetchingly described, and still be effective. I think club membership and educational qualifications are absurd yardsticks, and would point out that some of the world's greatest engineering achievers were largely auto-didacts. The secrets to high achievement are not just high intelligence and good qualifications, they necessarily MUST include passion for the field, and perseverance - plain, hard sweat. I have known thousands of highly intelligent, but unfocussed and indulgent people with much more education than the average. The only ones who ever amount to anything are those who have genuine passion and work hard. Rod falls in this category, and I defend him unreservedly.
Now, Sayonara, your comments are unkind, personal, and offensive. Have you fielded a retail product? Is this indeed relevant?
Cheers,
Hugh
I really can't understand how can someone bash Mr Elliot like that. Look, you might not like his designs or rants for that sake, but give credit where it's due: the guy has given a lot (a *LOT*) to the DIY comunity. And sorry, as far as i know, he has ALWAYS given credit where due too in it's site (in designs based from application notes or whatever). I don't agree with some of his opinions or even actions either (like naming his Zen "derivate" Death of Zen... it's just asking for trouble, even when i'm building the headphones version! 
), yet that doesn't prevent me from appreciating the great site he has put up. I think the highest of people like him or Mr Pass, who are willing to share such great designs and information for free.
PS: About his Gaincard rant... he was dead on IMHO. No one discusses it's a nice amp, just overpriced and hyped up. Just my .002.
), yet that doesn't prevent me from appreciating the great site he has put up. I think the highest of people like him or Mr Pass, who are willing to share such great designs and information for free.PS: About his Gaincard rant... he was dead on IMHO. No one discusses it's a nice amp, just overpriced and hyped up. Just my .002.
QBE - Qualified By Experience.
KY, so what if Rod Elliot posts generic circuits without crediting the source.
I regard Rod's site as a very well assembled collection of very useful circuits and very useful knowlege.
If a novice is to study and absorb the entire content of his site they are well on their way to success in diy audio, and I would say the ESP site is outstandingly good in depth and breadth of subject matter and experiences related by him.
Also, so what if Rod has no formal qualifications.
He has evidently done very much study in the electronics micro-subject of audio reproduction, and this well enough qualifies him in this area.
In my experience there are PLENTY of EE's who are not suited to audio equipment design or evaluation.
These types seem to have gleefully swallowed college professors aproximations, assumptions and cynical attitude and it shows.
This formal education process also often quences curiosity, questioning, and the subjective senses, and these are requirements for designing and evaluating universally sonically pleasing audio equipment.
More power to Rod for selflessly giving his knowlege and time to create such a useful reference point for the budding enthusiast and expert alike.
Eric.
KY, so what if Rod Elliot posts generic circuits without crediting the source.
I regard Rod's site as a very well assembled collection of very useful circuits and very useful knowlege.
If a novice is to study and absorb the entire content of his site they are well on their way to success in diy audio, and I would say the ESP site is outstandingly good in depth and breadth of subject matter and experiences related by him.
Also, so what if Rod has no formal qualifications.
He has evidently done very much study in the electronics micro-subject of audio reproduction, and this well enough qualifies him in this area.
In my experience there are PLENTY of EE's who are not suited to audio equipment design or evaluation.
These types seem to have gleefully swallowed college professors aproximations, assumptions and cynical attitude and it shows.
This formal education process also often quences curiosity, questioning, and the subjective senses, and these are requirements for designing and evaluating universally sonically pleasing audio equipment.
More power to Rod for selflessly giving his knowlege and time to create such a useful reference point for the budding enthusiast and expert alike.
Eric.
mbroker said:It occurs to me that several posts on this thread, most especially KYW's first, are in direct violation of Rule #1. IMHO, the fact that at least two moderators (Peter and Dave) basically ignored the libel is as reprehensible as the initial act.
Strong POV yes, but certainly not as bloody as some of the spats we have let go on. As Thorsten has given at least as much to the DIY community as Rod Elliot, i give him the latitude to express his opinions -- i suspect that they have clashed before -- and given geographic constraints over the faceless internet.
Hugh has kindly, and in much more diplomatic terms, given us another POV, based on actually meeting the guy.
I also think it is pretty clear here that the membership has taken care of things themselves (the situation by the time i 1st read the thread). As a mod i am happy to see, and much prefer to see, the membership guide things instead of having to impose something (from outside).
If i were Rod, i'd be a little teary with the outpouring of support that has come out.
dave
Well, for Rods sake I'll throw in my vote of support as well.
I first started out in DIY from sound.westcoast.com and learned greatly from it. His contributions are invaluable. Has anyone else here give that much except he and Mr. Pass? I think not, but if so there aren't many.
And I know I'll be rechanting what so many others have already said, but weather or not I agree with his opinions , or if others agree with them, we all have to admit that he has been very helpful and given back so much, all around he's also been a nice guy. It's completely inapropriate to bash Rod on being stronly convicted of his opinions, I find it more of a quality of defending what you believe and not just believing what others say because you have no confidence in your own observations and opinions.
While helpful to everyone not many come out and agree with his point of view. With all the mumbo jumbo here of how the position of the moon when soldering with silver solder where the silver was mined by an 18 year old virgin on the 3rd day of lent GREATLY affects the sound. Or how when a dolphin is present during the final constructions phases of an amplifier, the super sonic squeaks rearange the molecules in the circuitry in a way that will completely get rid of 5th order distortion, the only other improvement on this tweak it to then twirl the system so fast that lorentz contraction then shortens the signal path even more. When someone says that something, ANYTHING, is overkill they are completely shunned, saying that their system isn't good enough or that they just have a closed mind. I find that many of those advocating such tweaks are those with closed minds, not letting themselves admit that maybe spending all that money DIDN'T make anything better. Rod seems to have very down to earth opinions and I agree with many of them, we're all different and I can't say I agree with all of them, but he makes many good points.
He believes something, you believe something, so what? We're all different people and there are billions of us, it's bound that SOME of us will eventually dissagree with each other.
Lay off the personal insults, or insults of any kind. Next you'll be telling me that someone can't hear the difference between two resistors because of the color of their skin, and that that affects their hearing. Come on, grow up, it's time to play nice with other kids...
I first started out in DIY from sound.westcoast.com and learned greatly from it. His contributions are invaluable. Has anyone else here give that much except he and Mr. Pass? I think not, but if so there aren't many.
And I know I'll be rechanting what so many others have already said, but weather or not I agree with his opinions , or if others agree with them, we all have to admit that he has been very helpful and given back so much, all around he's also been a nice guy. It's completely inapropriate to bash Rod on being stronly convicted of his opinions, I find it more of a quality of defending what you believe and not just believing what others say because you have no confidence in your own observations and opinions.
While helpful to everyone not many come out and agree with his point of view. With all the mumbo jumbo here of how the position of the moon when soldering with silver solder where the silver was mined by an 18 year old virgin on the 3rd day of lent GREATLY affects the sound. Or how when a dolphin is present during the final constructions phases of an amplifier, the super sonic squeaks rearange the molecules in the circuitry in a way that will completely get rid of 5th order distortion, the only other improvement on this tweak it to then twirl the system so fast that lorentz contraction then shortens the signal path even more. When someone says that something, ANYTHING, is overkill they are completely shunned, saying that their system isn't good enough or that they just have a closed mind. I find that many of those advocating such tweaks are those with closed minds, not letting themselves admit that maybe spending all that money DIDN'T make anything better. Rod seems to have very down to earth opinions and I agree with many of them, we're all different and I can't say I agree with all of them, but he makes many good points.
He believes something, you believe something, so what? We're all different people and there are billions of us, it's bound that SOME of us will eventually dissagree with each other.
Lay off the personal insults, or insults of any kind. Next you'll be telling me that someone can't hear the difference between two resistors because of the color of their skin, and that that affects their hearing. Come on, grow up, it's time to play nice with other kids...
I also vote for Rod, even if he is not an engineer
BTW there are a lot of engineers that don't even know how to solder.. I had to teach that to one of them
, not to mention the great amount of humor about Engineers...
I am also a EE but I wouldn't say I am a good audio designer.. yes I have the knowledge to understand the behaviour of the circuits but this IMHO is only a fraction of what you need to design something "good"
Cheers
Andrea
BTW there are a lot of engineers that don't even know how to solder.. I had to teach that to one of them
, not to mention the great amount of humor about Engineers... I am also a EE but I wouldn't say I am a good audio designer.. yes I have the knowledge to understand the behaviour of the circuits but this IMHO is only a fraction of what you need to design something "good"
Cheers
Andrea
Andypairo,
I was taken aback with this comment:
If you are who I think you are - Andrea Ciuffoli - then I feel this is most humble of you, as your site is simply outstanding and I have drawn much fascination from it over the last couple of years.... (particularly your Zen-like power followers, a path I too have been down).
Like Rod, and incidentally Thorsten as well, I believe that your combined sites offer a huge service to the DIY community - all information freely given, with enthusiasm and passion, and I salute all of you for it.
On Thorsten, who doubtless will be reading this with burning ears
, I must say his site is extremely impressive and reflects the very same passion I also attribute to Rod. In fact, the whole bloody lot of you are impressive, and the hobbyists should be proud that they have access to your not inconsiderable collective experience, intellect and willingness to help.
For myself, I am humbled. My site has some substantial information on it, certainly, but a lot I keep to myself for one simple reason; this is my living, my life, a balance is required as I must have something left to sell......
Cheers,
Hugh
I was taken aback with this comment:
If you are who I think you are - Andrea Ciuffoli - then I feel this is most humble of you, as your site is simply outstanding and I have drawn much fascination from it over the last couple of years.... (particularly your Zen-like power followers, a path I too have been down).
Like Rod, and incidentally Thorsten as well, I believe that your combined sites offer a huge service to the DIY community - all information freely given, with enthusiasm and passion, and I salute all of you for it.
On Thorsten, who doubtless will be reading this with burning ears
, I must say his site is extremely impressive and reflects the very same passion I also attribute to Rod. In fact, the whole bloody lot of you are impressive, and the hobbyists should be proud that they have access to your not inconsiderable collective experience, intellect and willingness to help.For myself, I am humbled. My site has some substantial information on it, certainly, but a lot I keep to myself for one simple reason; this is my living, my life, a balance is required as I must have something left to sell......
Cheers,
Hugh
Peter Daniel said:
Peter, isn't there a difference between having more parts and having excessive parts? Just because a Bryston 3B uses more resistors and caps than a Gainclone doesn't in itself mean that it uses excessive parts.
Now for the gainclone, how do you know that inside the chip, National and Sanken didn't put in excessive parts?
Think about it.
On the qualification thing, I understand how it felt to be told that you are no good for a discussion - just a few days I ago, I was told that I wasn't qualified to talk about MOSFETs vs. BJTs because I have no formal background in semiconductor physics, .
If I had time, I would have told the story that a friend of mine experienced while interviewing on WSJ. Essentially, the point made to him was that being in a field, or having a formal background in that field, assures no one of one's current understanding of a point.
It has been my experience, universally, that when a party quotes "educational background", it is always an indication of that person's inability to explain something s/he claims to have understood, to put it mildly,.
.If I had time, I would have told the story that a friend of mine experienced while interviewing on WSJ. Essentially, the point made to him was that being in a field, or having a formal background in that field, assures no one of one's current understanding of a point.
It has been my experience, universally, that when a party quotes "educational background", it is always an indication of that person's inability to explain something s/he claims to have understood, to put it mildly,
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