It seems the NRJ muse need caps in the signal path ?
I would be interested to know what devices you had tested, and your results. Including your version, of course
I tested Wolfson, National, Ti, older Crystal a few Maxims and the NJR.
I didn't save results but they varied from horrible to very good with NJR at the top. I will post some measurements soon. You don't need caps on the Muses as you can run dual supplies. Implementation is of course key but it is very transparent and well reviewed if that matters.
Thank-you very much, wayne. I hope you will include your
It will be very interesting, as comparative reviews of those chips had not be know, as far as i know.
I have, on my side, noted 10 references or so, including 3PGAs. it is a pity they don't use the same logic, so we can compare all of them in an easy way.
My list:
Cirrus Logic CS3310
Dallas DS166
Dallas (Maxim) DS1882
Mitsubitchi M62446AFP
Mas MAS6116
Maxim MAX5409
BURR BROWN (TI) PGA2310, PGA2311, PGA2320
WOLSON WM8816
JRC MUSES72320
Last edited:
hmm, the MUSE opamps seemed to me to be 10x the price for unremarkable performance, simply because they have an OFC copper leadframe and can claim 'made for audio'...
there will be a massive rise in production costs for them just because of that and the associated low production numbers/low economy of scale vs cheaper higher performance parts.
for me, if spending that sort of money I would just build a discrete opamp, so i'm interested to see the volume control chip results. the Cirrus is quite interesting, bit pricey though, but I expect not as pricey as the MUSE
there will be a massive rise in production costs for them just because of that and the associated low production numbers/low economy of scale vs cheaper higher performance parts.
for me, if spending that sort of money I would just build a discrete opamp, so i'm interested to see the volume control chip results. the Cirrus is quite interesting, bit pricey though, but I expect not as pricey as the MUSE
This just popped -up on one of the lists I'm on. It's another confirmation, at least for me, that the humans are very unique, and, related to this thread, if some people say that they can hear something (distortion in certain parts, for example) there must be something to it, even if the majority, equipped with best tools in the world, claim that they can't measure a thing.
Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle
Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle
yes that paper has already been brought forward as 'proof' by several people here on the forum, proof for things that far outweigh this 'discovery'. even if we accept that, 10x is only ~10db and we have far more than 10dB more range than the generally accepted human hearing SNR available. in some cases thousands..... yes the human ear is an amazing instrument, but best to keep it in perspective.
Last edited:
Just the other day, I was having lunch with some of my colleagues, and we were talking at a level that people here wouldn't understand. There were questions about wire and bead materials and how they can impact the accuracy of accounting. But if you're happy with wood and steel, more power to you. We selected jade and nichrome after extensive testing, but that's the difference between a Bentley and a Yugo. Works for me!
Wood and steel definitely !
George
Attachments
Hmmm. 10dB IS a big deal. As we can detect a level change of fraction of a dB in DBLT (F.Toole etal). I would think 10X would be a big deal. Many people though we were 10X worse.. instead 10X better. The hearing limits/thresholds keep falling.
Keeping it in perspective.
-RNM
This is frequency discrimination, not level or distortion. Humans can be extremely sensitive to pitch. Fourier uncertainty sets no minimum detection level for amplitude.
I can vouch for this one - my el cheapo HT system uses this chip and I haven't picked any issues due to its presence. It may have audible artifacts but they are not damaging to the things I worry about ...Thank-you very much, wayne. I hope you will include your
It will be very interesting, as comparative reviews of those chips had not be know, as far as i know.
I have, on my side, noted 10 references or so, including 3PGAs. it is a pity they don't use the same logic, so we can compare all of them in an easy way.
My list:
...
Mitsubitchi M62446AFP
...
Frank
extremely helpless:
< File
escenteInfinie.ogg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia >or not even share the opinion whether the first or second
of two tones is higher:
< Philomel.com | Play Sound File: Deutsch's Tritone paradox >
also to speed:
< http://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de:8888/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Risset_accelerando_beat1.mp3 >
...and here are (self-censored) who claim to be annoyed by the 7th or 9th
harmonic at > -120 dB.
120 dB is the attenuation of a radio signal from here to the moon, to put
it in perspective. Or a jet engine at 30m distance to hearing threshold.
Gerhard
Last edited:
See! Since we can clearly hear the voices of astronauts on the moon, this is excellent proof that -120dB 7th is clearly audible!
jan
The Fourier 'measurement limit' is not about measurement, but reality. That means that violating it is simply not possible. If an experiment appears to violate it, then either the experiment is not doing what it thinks it is doing or there is an error in interpreting the results.
A short tone burst has a range of frequencies. A short tone burst based on a slightly higher frequency also has a range of frequencies slightly higher than the first tone burst. Different excitation of whatever the ear/brain does, so a different result is not surprising. Note that the write-up merely says that the experiment challenges existing models of ear/brain. It does not challenge basic maths, so no crumbs here for Fourier deniers!
A short tone burst has a range of frequencies. A short tone burst based on a slightly higher frequency also has a range of frequencies slightly higher than the first tone burst. Different excitation of whatever the ear/brain does, so a different result is not surprising. Note that the write-up merely says that the experiment challenges existing models of ear/brain. It does not challenge basic maths, so no crumbs here for Fourier deniers!
If we postulate that pitch is the important factor to humans then that is what should be investigated. The value of Fourier is not and should not be the question . It in and of it self is an elegant method of looking at a complex waveform it is of worth. If humans perceive say spruce trees in the forest then spruce trees are what need to be reproduced in this picture most. The accurateness of the reproduction of the oaks ,elms and larch are far less so.
As for the 7th order -120db harmonic being annoying I can only say life in the modern world must be overwhelming painful on a day to day basis. That level of data processing must is far above the Mensa members I know and love. There appears to be confusion with causal and coincidental for some.
As for the 7th order -120db harmonic being annoying I can only say life in the modern world must be overwhelming painful on a day to day basis. That level of data processing must is far above the Mensa members I know and love. There appears to be confusion with causal and coincidental for some.
I have only one type running at home, the PGA2311A, happy with it.Esperado, looking forward your results with the digital attenuator chips
Another site points out that this result has been known since the 70's. The fact that the ear/brain interface is not bound by linear computational constraints is not news. Note: I doubt if the test waveforms required any special processing/generation i.e. they are recordable and reproduceable on ordinary audio equipment. Diana Deutch's experiments even survived being on a flexidisk.
No, not really, unless you truly don't understand what this paper is about.
About pitch sensibility of human ears, there is 2 different things to consider.
One is in connection with the memory: It is the ability to identify the pitch of a note without any reference. We call that 'absolute pitch'. Few people can own this kind of brain frequency meter.
The other one is the ability to distinguish differences between close frequencies. I believe this is a matter of culture and training: All musicians and sound engineers are able to tune musical instruments with a good accuracy. I had never seen something extraordinary or somebody so special in this matter. Even a pianist is able to make a 'COMMA' difference.
In fact, i have never seen anybody with a special ability to discern things that others do not ( apart the difference in bandwidth due to age and sex) with was not the result of training and experience (learning). It is more a matter to recognize something known that anything else.
It is obvious: you will be unable to recognize an instrument in an orchestra if you do not know-it and how it is supposed to sound. Like to recognize your sun in a crowd.
Of course, some audiophiles have a special ability to discern things that does not exists, like -120dB 7th order distortion. They are able to recognize their sun 1000 miles away.
One is in connection with the memory: It is the ability to identify the pitch of a note without any reference. We call that 'absolute pitch'. Few people can own this kind of brain frequency meter.
The other one is the ability to distinguish differences between close frequencies. I believe this is a matter of culture and training: All musicians and sound engineers are able to tune musical instruments with a good accuracy. I had never seen something extraordinary or somebody so special in this matter. Even a pianist is able to make a 'COMMA' difference.
In fact, i have never seen anybody with a special ability to discern things that others do not ( apart the difference in bandwidth due to age and sex) with was not the result of training and experience (learning). It is more a matter to recognize something known that anything else.
It is obvious: you will be unable to recognize an instrument in an orchestra if you do not know-it and how it is supposed to sound. Like to recognize your sun in a crowd.
Of course, some audiophiles have a special ability to discern things that does not exists, like -120dB 7th order distortion. They are able to recognize their sun 1000 miles away.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.