Music for Blind Listening Tests
Yesterday, I listened to Britten's recording of his War Requiem, surely one of the highest achievements of the Recording Age. I was thinking of Mr. Marsh's assertion that he was confident of damning any small speaker in a Blind Listening Test simply from the lack of bass.
The War Requiem easily makes obvious if a speaker doesn't have extended LF. But I would no more think of using it to pick speakers as I would talk loudly when the National anthem was being played in a country in which I was a guest or defecating in a mosque. Some things you just don't do.
The fact is that in nearly 20 yrs of Blind Listening Tests, no one has brought or asked for Zarathustra, Bach's warhorse or the like when choosing which speakers they prefer. The nearest has been Ultravox's Vienna and on that occasion, the small speaker, though identified as lacking in bass, still won out.
From these tests, one might surmise, bass response is only one factor in one's choice of a speaker .. even among those who claim it as paramount.
I need to make another perhaps surprising point. The speakers which the unwashed masses 'like' in Blind Listening Tests, also happen to be the ones recording engineers, musicians, mike & speaker designers choose as 'most accurate' bla bla in the same tests. And this cuts across the favourite music of the listeners and what they use in the tests .. including stuff that has no semblance to 'real life'.
Out of this, I conclude there is such a thing as a 'good' conventional speaker and it is worthwhile striving for 'accuracy' bla bla. And that even without the Unobtainium & virgins, such speakers might still win customers and help keep you in business.
Otherwise, I would have become a beach bum far earlier than I did.
Yesterday, I listened to Britten's recording of his War Requiem, surely one of the highest achievements of the Recording Age. I was thinking of Mr. Marsh's assertion that he was confident of damning any small speaker in a Blind Listening Test simply from the lack of bass.
The War Requiem easily makes obvious if a speaker doesn't have extended LF. But I would no more think of using it to pick speakers as I would talk loudly when the National anthem was being played in a country in which I was a guest or defecating in a mosque. Some things you just don't do.
The fact is that in nearly 20 yrs of Blind Listening Tests, no one has brought or asked for Zarathustra, Bach's warhorse or the like when choosing which speakers they prefer. The nearest has been Ultravox's Vienna and on that occasion, the small speaker, though identified as lacking in bass, still won out.
From these tests, one might surmise, bass response is only one factor in one's choice of a speaker .. even among those who claim it as paramount.
I need to make another perhaps surprising point. The speakers which the unwashed masses 'like' in Blind Listening Tests, also happen to be the ones recording engineers, musicians, mike & speaker designers choose as 'most accurate' bla bla in the same tests. And this cuts across the favourite music of the listeners and what they use in the tests .. including stuff that has no semblance to 'real life'.
Out of this, I conclude there is such a thing as a 'good' conventional speaker and it is worthwhile striving for 'accuracy' bla bla. And that even without the Unobtainium & virgins, such speakers might still win customers and help keep you in business.
Otherwise, I would have become a beach bum far earlier than I did.
But that means you are passing your signal through 2-3x more evil OPAs
But I would. Because I know what and how I want to minimize.
Wave, which OPAs did you do your "Whisper Test" on?
I take it the test conditions are as you described earlier.
All of them that I considered to use. First exemplairs were K248UD1, 140UD6, 140UD7, 140UD8, 544UD1, 544UD2, that you probably never heard of.
The last time I tested (back in 2006) all that I considered to use then as the replacement in TOA console. Particularly, 4558, 5532, 5534, 4562, opa1612. As the result, added 6k8 resistors to 4558 to bias them and left them biased asymmetrically on higher current in the console as is, but replaced opamps in summing amps by opa1612 (later, because did not have anything better then).
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Are these Russian OPAs?
Got schematics of the TOA you can share? Any positions with 60dB gain?
Out of 4558, 5532, 5534, 4562, opa1612, what did you find?
What microphone, preamp, power amp & speakers used in the tests?
Did you measure distortion & noise?
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Good guess, about distortions. All answers are on graphs in datasheets. Particuarly, THD+N VS signal level, and gain/phase VS frequency. Hint: how much feedback would you get on 20 KHz for 20 DB gain? How much would you get for 60 dB gain? How much low level distortions will be reduced by feedback on high end of the band in question?
What is interesting, thermal induced change of low level distortios, especially on higher frequency of the interest.
I played a lot with with opamps and opamp topologies since 1970'th when I was young and infected by belief that vacuum tubes are obsolete and opams are final answer for all questions.
It was in laboratory of thick film ICs of Institute of Semiconductor Devices.
I tend to use 2 op amps in a multiloop configuation for that much gain
Gerald Graeme has also advocated 2 op amp composite amplifier, with high loop gain from 2 pole responses – his “Amplifier Applications of Op Amps” 1999 devotes a chapter to composite op amp circuits and their compensation
Gerald Graeme has also advocated 2 op amp composite amplifier, with high loop gain from 2 pole responses – his “Amplifier Applications of Op Amps” 1999 devotes a chapter to composite op amp circuits and their compensation
However, we Siberian bear farmers are stupid and ignorant guys; we are so stupid so instead of taking baths and using perfume we wash out bodies in steam baths slapping them by birch brooms. But at free from slapping bodies time we sometimes used to design opamps, optimize them for different applications, used them for different filters, non-linear converters, control systems, and so on. However, you would never believe that because it is impossible...
I covered this bass issue earlier here, so i wont repeat myself. Just to say I listen to Blues a lot (10,000+ tunes on CD plus more via down loads) and the 4-5 string bass is a fundamental instrument in that music and others. As you say "... easily makes obvious if a speaker doesnt have extended LF." --- when you play Blues. Check it -bass/blues -out on Wiki. We dont all listen to just classical music. Thx-RNM
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Bad Soviet copies of American opamps, except К284УД1 that was thin film hybrid for medical applications, awfully expensive, with matched JFETs.
But we did not have other choice, behind the fence.
Mr. Marsh, it's very unlikely I'll be able to get you into a properly conducted Blind Listening Test this millenium so any of my (or your) assertions about your possible performance are just wanking on my part.
I apologise for this and hope yus guys will see beyond my sh*t stirring and regard what I say as just reporting what I've found in testing some of the best ears in the business over nearly 2 decades. The Blind Listening Test results are factual.
My interpretation of them may of course be flawed. But any alternative interpretation should also fit the facts. ie the Blind Listening Test results.
Whereas the class D amp designed by Bruno Putzeys was tested very well by Stereophile. So, it is not the technology, but the implementation.
Thanks for this Wave. This is how most people would base their choice.
But as you may have realised, I'm inordinately interested in Listening Tests .. far more than in new xIM tests.
What did you hear on your Whisper Test with 4558, 5532, 5534, 4562 & opa1612?
If the Listening Test results were confusing and impossible to interpret, that's OK too .. cos that's what often happens.
It takes special care to design a Listening Test (especially Blind) to get firm recommendations. But I'd like to know.But I'd like to know if you found any heirarchy among the five you tested on your Whisper Test or did they all behave similarly.
I found that we Siberian bear farmers use our wit instead of huge investments.
…
It is so, it's typical to highly intelligent people coming from countries where the economic situation is highly restricted. I saw it many times in people who came to my country from Russia and other ex-USSR countries.
There is a nice Op amp for mike amplification at Analog device, low noise with symmetrical inputs: the SSM2019
I used-it to design a self powered belt mixing desk for news coverage and a little box you can plug on microphone booms. Working ok with the phantom powered mikes (good rejection).
Anough for the job, but not so good than discreet mike preamps with good trasfos for studio or stages.
This is the only place (mike preamps) where i found tubes can bring an advantage with their warm strong and natural figure on some recordings, like male voices. Don't know (or may-be yes ;-) why the first electronic analog interface is always so determinant. (Same thing with digital DA converters).
There is too useful line drivers and receivers: SSM2142 & SSM2141 (while i was not fully satisfied by the way they sounded, a (very) little flat).
I don't know if they are still in production.
I used-it to design a self powered belt mixing desk for news coverage and a little box you can plug on microphone booms. Working ok with the phantom powered mikes (good rejection).
Anough for the job, but not so good than discreet mike preamps with good trasfos for studio or stages.
This is the only place (mike preamps) where i found tubes can bring an advantage with their warm strong and natural figure on some recordings, like male voices. Don't know (or may-be yes ;-) why the first electronic analog interface is always so determinant. (Same thing with digital DA converters).
There is too useful line drivers and receivers: SSM2142 & SSM2141 (while i was not fully satisfied by the way they sounded, a (very) little flat).
I don't know if they are still in production.
I found the same with photography, where old chemical negatives can bring a magic that digital captors never give. Specially when you want to go for special effects like low key or high key.
I found one more place: power amps. Explanation is obvious: we require more power gain from this 2 parts of the chain than from the rest that works almost on the same level.
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