people hire consultants hoping the consultant knows more than the client
"successful" consulting doesn't impress as a proof of competence - one could just be a very good salesman or very selective of clients
surviving design reviews in front of panels with 100+ man years of domain specific engineering experience, clearing independent test groups/agency certifications, history of product in the market without problems/returns gives me more confidence
"successful" consulting doesn't impress as a proof of competence - one could just be a very good salesman or very selective of clients
surviving design reviews in front of panels with 100+ man years of domain specific engineering experience, clearing independent test groups/agency certifications, history of product in the market without problems/returns gives me more confidence
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Only IMHE, speakers which "fool imagination as if it sounds real" as judged by people who are not deaf are also 'nice' speakers as judged by the general public ... but only in Blind Listening Tests.
The best ears in the business (and I have tested some of the best) are just as prejudiced as the most rabid Golden Pinnae reviewer. The difference is their consistency in Blind Listening Tests.
Like Christophe, I don't trust my own sighted opinions .. especially on my own designs. But I DO trust my blind choices.
Frank, I'm not sure about your $20 speaker but I can confirm your experience with $20,000 ones.
And I can vouch for your "can't get any better" criteria. In a successful Blind Listening Test, you know when someone really 'likes', thinks its 'real', 'accurate' bla bla when his written comments go on about the music instead of bass, treble, clarity bla bla
You don't need multiple 15" bass units to create this suspension of belief. You usually do need a good 1000W/channel amp though.
Actually another surprising finding is that the most important performance factor in Blind Listening Tests is accurate midrange especially on voices. This holds for headbanging pop teenager as much as the guy who insists on using only his own recordings made with his own mikes. Believable voices are essential for suspension of belief. Hyped speakers do badly in Blind Listening Tests.
But my most devastating musical experiences have often not relied on supa dupa gear. I heard Rubinstein's 90th birthday concert on a portable radio. This was the concert of which Murray Perahia said he would never be able to play like that if he reached 100.
Those of us who work or have worked in the audio industry, and are sometimes disillusioned by the hype, need to remember that we, in our small way, support such priceless experiences.
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While we can enjoy any new bought equipment, appreciating each of its qualities during weeks, we listen to our work in a very negative way, tracking with fear the littlest defect...
Witch sound engineer can listen with pleasure his own mixes, with musician his own records ? Witch writer can read his own books ?
My current setup is/was a "proof of concept" of some ideas: a "junk" system to see how far one can push things. It's getting a bit long in the tooth now, all the electro's are well and truly past their "Use By" dates. And the speakers are of that $20 variety ...Frank, I'm not sure about your $20 speaker but I can confirm your experience with $20,000 ones.
But, when fully warmed up, and all the cylinders are firing then it is/was capable of delivering the "big" sound. More than anything else it's shown that nothing new has to be invented, it's all about refinement of what's already out there ...
Sorry, I don't get this one! Yes, if you want high quality, very low bass then very powerful amps are the only way to go. But everywhere else in the spectrum good engineering will get the results from very modest powers, IME.
Agree 100%. I have some "killer" recordings, as in "badly recorded" vocals, for checking progress made ...
Frank
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Thanks; that means you did not understand me. What I mean, subconscious reactions that happen before we realize that the sound goes from speakers. When I jump and turn around before realizing that there is no way water is running in my living room during this sunny day. When my father in law insists that somebody was playing piano in my house. When my guest says that he want to live near the creek because he likes how frogs on my backyard are singing. When people during a home concert look outside for the helicopter, when I put a record for Diego for his song; and so on. It is more than a blind test. It is like people waiting when that blind test starts because they hear some conversations behind the curtains thinking that people who suppose to run the test are just talking. I mean such quality when people don't realize that they are being tested and have no clue that they hear sounds from loudspeakers.
Some very nice indicators, Anatoliy ... just curious, how close can you get to the speaker drivers with that illusion being maintained ...?
Thanks,
Frank
Well said. It so happens that speakers which do well in Blind Listening Tests are also the ones where I've experienced similar things to what you've described and seen it happened to other people too.
Most of my recordings are of live concerts so have cues of this sort which can startle the listener when he realises they are actually on the recording.
In fact, I'll stick my neck out and claim that speakers that don't do well in my Blind Listening Tests will NOT be able to fool the listener as you have described.
Frank, I'd be interested in these $20 speakers as that's all I can afford as a beach bum. I'm hoping you won't tell me they were made by Sydney virgins.
My point was that you don't need response to 27Hz and huge bass capability to have a speaker that draws comments like "beautiful bass lines", "never heard Yo Yo Ma play so well", "Mr Willem is exquisite in Waldstein" or indeed any headbanging Beethoven keyboard stuff.
But small speakers have a sensitivity disadvantage in addition to restricted LF AES E-Library Theoretical and Practical Aspects of Loudspeaker Bass Unit Design
If my 5" mini speakers are going against Mr. Marsh's multiple 15" bass units or Christoff's 99dB/W monsters, in a Blind Listening Test, it needs a bit of help.
Following Ludwig's score means an accurate piano recording played at home at the correct level will clip a 1000W amp even with a speaker of 94dB/W @ 1m sens. It justs clips less often compared to 50W.
BTW, my money is on the 5" mini provided the above conditions are met and the test is truly blind.
For several years I did the electronics for small powered speakers. Although the first conscious and enunciated response of a typical listener was related to how much bass was perceived, the relative flatness of the midrange, even if not noted as such, was indeed paramount in distinguishing the given product from comparable ones. And the equalization required was sometimes as simple as a passive or bootstrapped bridged-T network ahead of the power amp.
Once in a while the industrial design married well with the acoustical, and actually resulted in decent dispersion/directivity and absence of prominent diffraction effects. That really helped a lot, and with frequency-dependent compression/limiting resulted in some fairly credible near-field listening possibilities. And all of this for a parts cost well below someone's fancy film cap, and reliability based on customer complaints and returns at the few-hundred parts-per-million level.
Brad, did you by any chance do the JBL LSR25p?
A friend of mine has 8 for a surround sound system. He needs to repair the electronics for some.
I called my version of dis Powered Integrated Super Sub technology but for some reason, Marketing never liked the name.
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Sydney ... virgins ... why does the term "oxymoron" seem to flit into my consciousness ...Frank, I'd be interested in these $20 speakers as that's all I can afford as a beach bum. I'm hoping you won't tell me they were made by Sydney virgins.
, Nah, they're nothing special, made by a huge Taiwanese speaker factory, name escapes me at the moment. They sound pretty rough and somewhat dull when cold; have to be hammered hard for a hour or two at least with serious pub rock or equivalent to come to life, suspensions are pretty ordinary until thoroughly warmed up ...
Huh?!! Forgetting about stereo setups, doubling the power gives you an extra 3dB from the speaker: so 1W, 94db; 2W; 97; 4W, 100; 8W; 103; 16W, 106; 32W, 109; 64W, 112; 128W, 115; 256W; 118. We're now at a level just below the maximum that can be experienced by a player in an orchestra, seated immediately in front of the brass section. A solo piano is not as loud as that, the amp's power is not a problem!
We do have a upright piano at home, in the listening area; using that as a reference, four clicks below maximum volume on a typical classical recording, say Brendel sonatas, gives me equivalent SPLs, with considerably better tone from the recording, as it should with a top notch Steinway, etc, at his service ...
I am aware that most hifi playback of piano is rather insipid and pedestrian, but it doesn't need to be ...
Frank
There is a huge difference between liking and enjoy the music and realistic sounding systems. I listen to a lot of junk equipment at home.... Sat. radio box, mono iPOD player, car audio and thoroughly enjoy listening thru them to the music I love. Only my main rig sounds a lot closer to real than the others. Its the one system I turn to when I want max performance with my music. And, that isnt even most of the time. It's just good to know i have the choice.
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As I stated, the energy density will heat the air as it passes through. But it is a transient condition of course, it will track the frequency but will remain on average, the same as the rest of the room.
During the rarefaction and compression, the temperature will be varying. My question was, given for example, 4 acoustic watts travelling through a 1 square inch column of air, how much of a rise could one expect, therefore how much of a modulation of velocity.
Your first sentence is with respect to absorbtion. I was not speaking of that. Your second is more aligned with my statements.
jn
256W but at 1 meter from the speaker. Depending on room volume/size and speaker directivity, distance to the listening position, room characteristic et al, the power needs will be greater than this minimum number. And, most speakers are much lower than 94db. Lots more power needed.
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