I've just looked at the spec's and reviews of the subwoofer used, an EP600, flat response in an anechoic chamber to 19Hz, looks pretty impressive to me. How would you go one better?
Frank
Probably with something with less excursion needed than for a single 12" driver. I have a pair of 12" drivers in a concrete horn under my floor, but watching movies anyway I hear them when they suppose to cause shaking of stomachs and sofas only. It is not the problem to get something down to 19 Hertz and below. The problem is to get it with low distortions.
Agreed, achieving truly low distortion bass is a difficult exercise. But, in the context of that listening test if those speakers were producing excess distortion then the results would have been skewed to make the distortion per frequency slope less extreme than it came out. They found the higher the frequency, harmonics, the easier it was for the subjects to pick that something was out of kilter, so if the subwoofer was producing excess distortion they wouldn't have needed to run it at volumes louder than the music for a difference to be heard ...
Frank
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I am saying that I hear pair of 12" in concrete horn when they produce something on about 10 Hz frequency. If I hear them I obviously hear distortions.
Wavebourne,
At anything like that low frequency of 10hz I would expect you would unless your whole room and more was the mouth of the waveguide. I can't imagine anyone having the room for even a 25hz mouth size, that is gigantic at 1/4 wavelength. I would expect the 12" to rattle fairly hard at that frequency.
At anything like that low frequency of 10hz I would expect you would unless your whole room and more was the mouth of the waveguide. I can't imagine anyone having the room for even a 25hz mouth size, that is gigantic at 1/4 wavelength. I would expect the 12" to rattle fairly hard at that frequency.
Rattling in the room is rattling in the room, it is no problem to tell the difference. However, when I covered the opening by fabric to protect it from dust and garbage I heard rattling of the fabric. But if I hear distortions I hear distortions.
It was only an example. I did not want to complain that my system is bad. What I mean, it is hard to get low distortions on low frequencies, especially from a single 12" driver in a wooden bass reflex enclosure.
It is very hard to get low distortion in the bass/deep bass and do it at high spl needed for hearing it as being loud. I have to use 4 - high effeciency 15 inch bass drivers which can handle high power as well. And, I dont think it is the greatest. But compared to a two way it is great. but compared to real sounds, it still is marginal. So I picked up a pair of 18 inch subs to make enclosures and crossovers (active) for. This system will produce prodigous output at very low freqs and do it accurately. It takes a large total radiating cone area to do this right or big horns.
There are quit a few very low freqs recorded on music CD and movie DVD. Many bass players now also play a 5 sting bass as opposed to standard 4 string (40Hz). The 5-string bass is subterranion. Try to hear the powerful first two notes of the opening of Chris Isaak "Baby Did a Bad, Bad Thing' from "Best of Chris Isaak" (remastered). -RNM
There are quit a few very low freqs recorded on music CD and movie DVD. Many bass players now also play a 5 sting bass as opposed to standard 4 string (40Hz). The 5-string bass is subterranion. Try to hear the powerful first two notes of the opening of Chris Isaak "Baby Did a Bad, Bad Thing' from "Best of Chris Isaak" (remastered). -RNM
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I must come from the wrong side of the universe, I've never got what this rumbling bass thing is all about. Every time I've heard a system that obviously is set up to extract impressive bass it's so incredibly lopsided in sound that to me it's totally pointless: the rest of the spectrum beyond the bottom few octaves is subjectively like a tiny midget, the overall effect has absolutely nothing to do with what real sound is like.
For 25 years I've never bothered particularly about the bass side of things, and on hearing other systems I never feel I've missed out on anything ...
Frank
For 25 years I've never bothered particularly about the bass side of things, and on hearing other systems I never feel I've missed out on anything ...
Frank
I'd advise then against acquiring "Beats by Dr. Dre" headphones
, about which one person said made him feel that, although sitting with the band, he was positioned inside the bass drum.In low-cost powered speaker land, a territory I don't much miss, it was said that the first thing that people noticed when auditioning such things was the bass. After that they might notice the highs, and after a while possibly how uncolored the midrange was. I think my own weighting was almost the reverse of that, and one of the early developments was to get the midrange right. We used to joke that we anticipated that knockoffs would simply copy the particular network and incorporate it, regardless of how well it compensated for the driver/enclosure response.
But oddly, I don't think it ever happened, at least not for a long time. The competition from overseas went for app note pasteup designs, and for something to differentiate, more features and controls. Now seemingly, everything has to be wireless. What a waste.
I am more of a perfectionist when it comes to high-end -- if it is on the recording, i want to get it off and hear it. The musician put it there to hear as part of the music. Cutting the top end off isnt any better than cutting the bottom off. BUT, I can like the music in my car system or iPOD thingy (which I have several) without all the tones played back/heard.... but those arent high-end systems either.
I am thinking about putting a pair of at least 15" drivers in the sub, but don't know when I will stop procrastinating... The space under the floor is so tight. First, I have to remove the panel with pair of 12" drivers molded in concrete. Then I need to fit there another panel, with 15" drivers, under sharper angle. Then fix it there. Lots of work. If I made it today, I would make longer waveguide than I made 5 years ago.
Frank, when bass reproduction is right you feel it by your part of the body under your belly, but it does not sound loud. If it sounds loud that most probably means you hear distortions instead of fundamental.
My quibble is that there is almost nothing on most albums that is part of the musical score, which has a fundamental frequency below 50Hz. Look at Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network, only the pipe organ and piano really venture into that territory, and how many times in an hour of music are notes in that part of the stave called for? Yes, there is sub-bass, a good term BTW, but that is an aspect of the recording hall ambience, rumblings of the combination of earth and space, important for conveying the sense of that space for some, but not intrinsic to the music as written down. So, to me, a reasonable speaker that can go comfortably and near flat to 50Hz theoretically should do the job 99% of the time ...
Yes, there are "silly" synthesizer tracks that have frequencies at 10Hz and suchlike, but I 'm talking about "normal" music here ...
Frank
When you have REAL bass extension (not whomped up hifi intended for 1812 cannons), you mostly notice the difference in things like footsteps, chairs moving, the mechanics of piano pedals, the sound of a guitarist's fingers tapping the soundboard, and so forth.
It may be my imagination, but I think there's also an improvement in the "articulation" of notes.
It may be my imagination, but I think there's also an improvement in the "articulation" of notes.
Such frequencies are rare and had been difficult to record, let alone reproduce. I had the pleasure of hearing the Strauss at Disney and the pedal C (doubled as well an octave higher) reproduced in a real and very good space, and overall the balance of the organ and orchestra throughout was good, and not exploited as a gimmick or effect.
There is a CD that has this energy recorded as well, but it is artificially boosted and sounds pretty ridiculous compared to the marking of piano in the score. I heard that on a system with multiple powered low-distortion subwoofers, and the desire to stand in a doorway during the earthquake was palpable.
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