Completely agree ...
Completely disagree. In my experience, there is a first level of refinement which allows "high quality" source to sound top notch; followed by the next level of refinement which enables extremely "difficult" material to come to life. The end goal is that there is no material which can't be reproduced sufficiently accurately to make it a completely engaging, enjoyable musical experience. That first level of refinement I've heard many times, and it frequently sounds disasterous with "poor" material -- completely unnecessary for that to be the case. The headache in the whole matter is that one has to go to what many would consider excessive measures, have to consider aspects which many would consider bizarre, to get the higher level of refinement to eventuate, to emerge, and most unfortunately of all, it is also a mighty fragile animal! In my experience. But, it is so, so satisfying to achieve ...
Frank
The 'game of audio' has several levels: There is the convenience level, with digital mp-3 today, so that you can have your 'music' everywhere you want. In older days, is was the Sony Walkman, and before that, the portable radio, going back to 1923.
The second level might be mid fi, like your kitchen radio, bedroom playback system, or automobile radio. Also, included in the mid fi catagory is most home theatre and living room playback systems.
Then there is hi end, starting with your old Marantz and McIntosh tube amps and preamps, early Audio Research tube equipment, early Levinson solid state, and now a number of relatively expensive solid state and tube products, in ruthless competition with each other to make the best sound possible. Is it worth it? Of course it is, IF you can afford it, or love it dearly enough. Most won't 'pay the price' so they get something somewhat cheaper and more compromised. Nothing wrong with that, as I drive an older Acura, and am happy enough, instead of a BMW or Mercedes, which my wealthier friends own. However, I do not energetically insist that my Acura is just as good as a much more expensive vehicle, in every way.
It is ALWAYS refreshing for me to have a serious conversation with a true audiophile, who is willing to make the personal compromises, to have near perfection in audio reproduction. I learn more from them than anyone else.
The second level might be mid fi, like your kitchen radio, bedroom playback system, or automobile radio. Also, included in the mid fi catagory is most home theatre and living room playback systems.
Then there is hi end, starting with your old Marantz and McIntosh tube amps and preamps, early Audio Research tube equipment, early Levinson solid state, and now a number of relatively expensive solid state and tube products, in ruthless competition with each other to make the best sound possible. Is it worth it? Of course it is, IF you can afford it, or love it dearly enough. Most won't 'pay the price' so they get something somewhat cheaper and more compromised. Nothing wrong with that, as I drive an older Acura, and am happy enough, instead of a BMW or Mercedes, which my wealthier friends own. However, I do not energetically insist that my Acura is just as good as a much more expensive vehicle, in every way.
It is ALWAYS refreshing for me to have a serious conversation with a true audiophile, who is willing to make the personal compromises, to have near perfection in audio reproduction. I learn more from them than anyone else.
Yesterday, I had a satisfying conversation with a fellow engineer. One who thinks like I do about hi end audio. This engineer earns no more money than I do, which is less than it should be to provide a middle class family with what they need, but who has the same passion for high quality audio.
From this source, I learned what 'reference' Blue Ray releases now exist, as well as a number of technical details on the LIMITATIONS of specific IC's, based on both measurement and listening. I, in turn, was able to help this person with their problems and challenges, as well. All told, a satisfying conversation. Could we not have more conversations here on this thread? '-)
From this source, I learned what 'reference' Blue Ray releases now exist, as well as a number of technical details on the LIMITATIONS of specific IC's, based on both measurement and listening. I, in turn, was able to help this person with their problems and challenges, as well. All told, a satisfying conversation. Could we not have more conversations here on this thread? '-)
John, in my audio travels to date I have come across very, very few people who believe in superlative sound: none in person, only a handful in the online world. In fact, there is quite a vehement backlash to this idea by many, if not most people, which I find very curious. It seems to come down to the human condition - if something is not commonly accepted, generally agreed upon, then it is considered by most to not have much validity ...
The analogy with video is easy: better resolution means that the screen can be bigger with no apparent loss of visual quality and is obviously more impressive. In sound, this translates to higher SPL but most systems, no matter how expensive, start to fall apart when pushed - they just begin to sound LOUD, not more intense or engaging. Equivalent to those terrible projection screen TVs you got in clubs and such years ago - yes, they were big but the picture quality was pretty nauseating ...
Frank
The analogy with video is easy: better resolution means that the screen can be bigger with no apparent loss of visual quality and is obviously more impressive. In sound, this translates to higher SPL but most systems, no matter how expensive, start to fall apart when pushed - they just begin to sound LOUD, not more intense or engaging. Equivalent to those terrible projection screen TVs you got in clubs and such years ago - yes, they were big but the picture quality was pretty nauseating ...
Frank
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Fas42, I don't really care what most people think. Out of the billions of people in the world, there are enough people who DO care about audio quality to make it viable. It may be true that the average 'middle class family' has moved away from listening only to hi fi, there as still those who go to hi fi shows, buy quality audio equipment, and come up to me and tell me how they appreciate my products or something similar, on their own.
It may be like the character that we used to hear about, who would play his jazz 78's in his den, hoping his kids will pay attention sometime, yet it is still worthwhile.
It may be like the character that we used to hear about, who would play his jazz 78's in his den, hoping his kids will pay attention sometime, yet it is still worthwhile.
It's certainly worthwhile trying to pass the ideas on. A relatively recently made friend who has a highly capable technician's approach to electronics had a quite reasonable setup at the beginning when I first met him, and over the years I've been steadily indoctrinating him into the philosophy of "everything matters, everything matters"; now he's as obsessive about the "silly" things as myself, and achieves quite startling good sound a lot of the time.
Heavens above, he has even bought into the idea of "there's no such thing as a bad recording". Vinyl and CD that were written off as unrescuable when first acquired, are now regularly trotted out to demonstrate progress made ...
Frank
Heavens above, he has even bought into the idea of "there's no such thing as a bad recording". Vinyl and CD that were written off as unrescuable when first acquired, are now regularly trotted out to demonstrate progress made ...
Frank
Well, yah yuck. But I gotta tell ya, portability was the thing for me. I was spinning during the vinyl to CD transition, and I traded off carrying 3 to 4 cubic feet of plastic 12 inch disks for one 24 inch by 14 inch by 6 inch box of jewel cases. I could carry more titles for requests, but I was amazed at how heavy that many CD's were. It was heavier than my 18 inch subs.
I then burned all my music to the little 21 minute 3 inch cd's with vinyl sleeves...that way I could take everything.Now, one memory stick carries everything.
Mostly. Some are 45. Take a look at the vinyl section on Amazon,
particularly Dance and DJ, and of course there's lots of other.
Might have to do that. Most of my big singles are 33 (1700 pieces), with the occasional 12 inch 45. I hate the 45's, it's easier to spot mix the 33's.
Most of my 12's are 1978 to 81.
jn
I guess it's slack engineering. Possibly the designer give more importance to the 5.1 outputs than to the stereo outputs.
Anyhow, in many cases a well designed discrete I/V and/or analog output circuits will sound better than the best IC out there.
For sheer silliness, how about the integrated amplifiers that gold-plate only the CD inputs?
It's the accountants who make a hi-fi BOM into a mid-fi BOM.
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As I think it was John who said so in another thread or perhaps here, the difference between a good designer and a great one is knowing where you can cut a corner or use a different device and still attain the design goals. In a cheap consumer product it is going to be a little bit of cutting everywhere, a thinner board, cheaper capacitors with lower voltage ratings, wider tolerances and every other aspect of the design will be compromised to an extent. In a mid fi product a great designer can achieve most of what they want and still not use the most exotic components to get there, he knows how to get the most out of each part and what to do to get there. Good design or great designer, take your choice.
Actually, I think it is a different comparison. Mid fi, is getting the most 'specs' and features with circuitry that you can barely get away with. Hi fi is doing the best design possible, that shows itself with improved sound quality.
It DOES take a good engineer to make cheap yet passible audio or video equipment, but it is not hi fi, or hi end video.
Think about autos. Can the best automotive engineers use just cheap stuff and get superior results, through superior engineering?
It DOES take a good engineer to make cheap yet passible audio or video equipment, but it is not hi fi, or hi end video.
Think about autos. Can the best automotive engineers use just cheap stuff and get superior results, through superior engineering?
I have been working recently on a design made by those special engineers who make something that works well for an 'affordable' price. And you know, they are really sharp and even 'overeducated'. Yesterday, I had lunch with a young woman, who is in charge of the project I am working on, and she has a PhD in engineering! Wow! The circuits I am working on, are pretty good, but not 'hi end'. Still, the results are pretty darn good.
OTOH, if you take a no-compromise design (I know, an oxymoron) and manufacture 100k units, it becomes dirt cheap AND very good. Numbers save you or kill you, depending
jan
Jan and John,
Points well taken. So to restate what I am saying then only talking about hifi. A great designer can do more with the same components, how about that. Given the same components a great designer can design a superior circuit implementation than someone who just knows how to use the components but not optimize every aspect of the design. Jan you are so right that with volume sales you can use more expensive components due to quantity price breaks and a low volume product would require a higher sales price. The only problem in this industry is that brands that become known for quality and sell in quantity often end up being bought out and end up being only a trade name in the end.
Points well taken. So to restate what I am saying then only talking about hifi. A great designer can do more with the same components, how about that. Given the same components a great designer can design a superior circuit implementation than someone who just knows how to use the components but not optimize every aspect of the design. Jan you are so right that with volume sales you can use more expensive components due to quantity price breaks and a low volume product would require a higher sales price. The only problem in this industry is that brands that become known for quality and sell in quantity often end up being bought out and end up being only a trade name in the end.
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