"And those, who like myself will state that from the given specifications it is not possible to conclude anything about the subjective sound quality of the Amplifier."
And yet, on the other hand, you will persist in making comments like this:-
"For example, I can make an amplifier that unconditionally stable, has 120dB NFB at DC and very low measured THD at 1KHz. By having done this however there is a good chance that I have worsened some other performance parameters and elevated some forms of distortion normally well below the noisefloor to prominence, plus these distortions may resist measurements using traditional steady state signals."
Comments like these have nothing to do with the current SOTA in amplifer design; they simply muddy the waters and spread lots of psuedo technical bs around. You seem to want to have everything your own way in this discussion, and keep on regurgitating stuff that may have been applicable 35 years ago, but has long since been consigned to history.
And yet, on the other hand, you will persist in making comments like this:-
"For example, I can make an amplifier that unconditionally stable, has 120dB NFB at DC and very low measured THD at 1KHz. By having done this however there is a good chance that I have worsened some other performance parameters and elevated some forms of distortion normally well below the noisefloor to prominence, plus these distortions may resist measurements using traditional steady state signals."
Comments like these have nothing to do with the current SOTA in amplifer design; they simply muddy the waters and spread lots of psuedo technical bs around. You seem to want to have everything your own way in this discussion, and keep on regurgitating stuff that may have been applicable 35 years ago, but has long since been consigned to history.
Sy,
I never made the connection.
I am quite fond of the SciFi stories of the times during which he was active, they have a certain innocence and enthusiasm that our modern times no longer encourage.
How many more SciFi writers and people from the esoteric circles once had their hands in Audio and went to print in the 50's and 60's?
They certainly where by far more entertaining than the chemists and computer geeks we seem to get these days... And they where more often right in some sense, than totally wrong.
I can completely relate to his wife's complaint about razzy sound. Oversampling with CD-Standard audio is particulary good doing this...
JC's wife would have had a fieldday with CD...
Razzy sounds and that combined with Noel Keywoods CD = 300% Distortion Editorial and measurements would have been "big audio dynamite"...
Ciao T
I never made the connection.
I am quite fond of the SciFi stories of the times during which he was active, they have a certain innocence and enthusiasm that our modern times no longer encourage.
How many more SciFi writers and people from the esoteric circles once had their hands in Audio and went to print in the 50's and 60's?
They certainly where by far more entertaining than the chemists and computer geeks we seem to get these days... And they where more often right in some sense, than totally wrong.
I can completely relate to his wife's complaint about razzy sound. Oversampling with CD-Standard audio is particulary good doing this...
JC's wife would have had a fieldday with CD...
Razzy sounds and that combined with Noel Keywoods CD = 300% Distortion Editorial and measurements would have been "big audio dynamite"...
Ciao T
Do You mean this ,Memory Distortion Philosophies - Part 1 : Theory ,?
Very nice, "problem" generated in simulation with unipolar DC pulse with duration about 100ms and more (certainly music sigal..).And solution to supres this (in reality non existent)distortion? Well known technical metod to improve linearity before feedback.
I wish that I could follow with something 'scientific', but things have gotten out of hand.
Yesterday, I had a fancy dinner in a Casino resturant with Jack Bybee. We had a glass of first class champagne, (but then, that is just my humble opinion), a steak that I could not normally afford, etc. etc. Of course, it might be pure hypnosis, due to the clean table cloth, and the excellent service, but I think that I could taste the difference between what I ate, and what I could normally buy at SAFEWAY (a large grocery store).
For some reason, I doubt that I will be attacked for making that statement, yet when it comes to things AUDIO, my colleagues and I can't say anything with a similar opinion, without being virtually laughed at.
Jack Bybee recently came back from Turkey, where he was invited to a hi fi show. Apparently, just about EVERYTHING in hi end audio was there, and Jack got lots of appreciative feedback for many of his design efforts that were represented there. It is an entirely different 'world view' from what is debated here, daily. Why is this?
Can't someone just go to such an event, listen for themselves, and then decide what sounds good, and what does not? If not, why not?
I am reminded of a hi fi show where I first met Saul Marantz, in 1965, (or maybe 1964). In any case I went to the show with a house mate and aspiring jazz musician, and we visited the different demos.
I remember the JBL exhibit, with a huge horn loaded speaker system sounding the worst, edgy, beyond typical. Mac did an OK exhibit, and I can't remember if Saul Marantz had a working exhibit, as he was demoing his new turntable. However, finally we found the exhibit that really sounded good, really good, it was a large Tannoy horn. We then asked what amp was driving it, as it sounded so good, and we were told that it was a Marantz 9 tube amp running in Triode mode.
Now did I hear what I heard, or what? Even after more than 45 years, I can recollect making that listening comparison, trusting my ears. Why can't do that today?
Yesterday, I had a fancy dinner in a Casino resturant with Jack Bybee. We had a glass of first class champagne, (but then, that is just my humble opinion), a steak that I could not normally afford, etc. etc. Of course, it might be pure hypnosis, due to the clean table cloth, and the excellent service, but I think that I could taste the difference between what I ate, and what I could normally buy at SAFEWAY (a large grocery store).
For some reason, I doubt that I will be attacked for making that statement, yet when it comes to things AUDIO, my colleagues and I can't say anything with a similar opinion, without being virtually laughed at.
Jack Bybee recently came back from Turkey, where he was invited to a hi fi show. Apparently, just about EVERYTHING in hi end audio was there, and Jack got lots of appreciative feedback for many of his design efforts that were represented there. It is an entirely different 'world view' from what is debated here, daily. Why is this?
Can't someone just go to such an event, listen for themselves, and then decide what sounds good, and what does not? If not, why not?
I am reminded of a hi fi show where I first met Saul Marantz, in 1965, (or maybe 1964). In any case I went to the show with a house mate and aspiring jazz musician, and we visited the different demos.
I remember the JBL exhibit, with a huge horn loaded speaker system sounding the worst, edgy, beyond typical. Mac did an OK exhibit, and I can't remember if Saul Marantz had a working exhibit, as he was demoing his new turntable. However, finally we found the exhibit that really sounded good, really good, it was a large Tannoy horn. We then asked what amp was driving it, as it sounded so good, and we were told that it was a Marantz 9 tube amp running in Triode mode.
Now did I hear what I heard, or what? Even after more than 45 years, I can recollect making that listening comparison, trusting my ears. Why can't do that today?
Hi,
Is it an AES paper or a JAES publication? Because I was referring to such.
It is not necessarily a bad effort (on the contrary), but it is not something most people here that oppose "snake oil" would accept, not because it lacks truth, but because it lacks authority, so I would not propose it.
Ciao T
Is it an AES paper or a JAES publication? Because I was referring to such.
It is not necessarily a bad effort (on the contrary), but it is not something most people here that oppose "snake oil" would accept, not because it lacks truth, but because it lacks authority, so I would not propose it.
Ciao T
Presumably you are not going to claim that the steak is the best possible (not merely to your taste), and it must be the best because the award-winning farmer/chef/waiter says so and he sells expensive steaks to a lot of rich people. No, if you just say "I enjoyed it" then we can't argue with that. We might prefer chicken or lamb, but we are happy for you to enjoy your steak. Just don't tell us that steak is better, and we would realise that if only we had the same refined palate as you.john curl said:
It is impressive that John W. Campbell, BS physics in 1932 (how many were there?) is put down because he became enthusiastic about what another author promoted.
Reading his article, reminds me of many ANALOG articles that have been made in the last 30+ years, discussing what we really don't understand about physics, even today. To hear some here tell it, all of physics is essentially known, and any speculation, outside the textbook, is the product of 'sham wizards' or 'Gurus' (like me) who run off at the mouth.
Now, here is someone after my own heart, John W. Campbell actually LISTENED to his wife's complaints and went back to the drawing board to find out why. He found out WHY as well, TOO many coupling caps improperly loaded, that created a subliminal distortion that he did NOT detect with his trusty IM analyzer or audio oscillator. Then, he had the 'guts' to write an article about it and get it published in 'Audio', to warn others of the problem he had tripped over. Personally, I am appreciative of the article.
Now, let me give a similar story about what happened with Mark Levinson, his mother, and me.
In 1973, I was visiting Mark Levinson. Then, he used a pair of Dayton Wright electrostatic loudspeakers, driven by a Phase Linear 700 power amp (then, one of the most powerful amps available).
In any case, it sounded OK, balanced and adequate.
However, Mark's mother complained that when Mark changed from the Marantz 9's to the Phase Linear power amp that it bothered her ears. It didn't bother Mark or me, surprisingly, and I still don't know why. But Mark asked me if I had any thoughts about how to fix her complaint. I said that Phase Linear tended to have a lot of crossover distortion, in order to run a cool as possible (and have as small a heatsink as possible), and that listening tests had been run that seemed to imply that this crossover distortion was inaudible. (You know, blind tests run by Bob Carver).
Well, Mark and I decided to try the obvious. We would just turn up the quiescent current a bit (pot controlled) and see what happens. Maybe his mom would be happier. What happened was two fold: First, the subjective distortion dropped and his mom was happier, BUT also ALMOST ALL THE HIGH FREQUENCY subjective balance was also lost. Mark asked me if we could have changed the bandwidth significantly, and I said no, BUT it appears that the DW electrostatic loudspeakers had fudged the specified frequency response, and the DISTORTION was filling in the loss for Mark and me, but it did NOT fool his mom. The next time I visited Mark, he had an electrostatic tweeter perched on top. Later, DW added a tweeter, as well. And so it goes.
Thank goodness that Mark's mom had an opinion of her own that we could ultimately learn from.
Reading his article, reminds me of many ANALOG articles that have been made in the last 30+ years, discussing what we really don't understand about physics, even today. To hear some here tell it, all of physics is essentially known, and any speculation, outside the textbook, is the product of 'sham wizards' or 'Gurus' (like me) who run off at the mouth.
Now, here is someone after my own heart, John W. Campbell actually LISTENED to his wife's complaints and went back to the drawing board to find out why. He found out WHY as well, TOO many coupling caps improperly loaded, that created a subliminal distortion that he did NOT detect with his trusty IM analyzer or audio oscillator. Then, he had the 'guts' to write an article about it and get it published in 'Audio', to warn others of the problem he had tripped over. Personally, I am appreciative of the article.
Now, let me give a similar story about what happened with Mark Levinson, his mother, and me.
In 1973, I was visiting Mark Levinson. Then, he used a pair of Dayton Wright electrostatic loudspeakers, driven by a Phase Linear 700 power amp (then, one of the most powerful amps available).
In any case, it sounded OK, balanced and adequate.
However, Mark's mother complained that when Mark changed from the Marantz 9's to the Phase Linear power amp that it bothered her ears. It didn't bother Mark or me, surprisingly, and I still don't know why. But Mark asked me if I had any thoughts about how to fix her complaint. I said that Phase Linear tended to have a lot of crossover distortion, in order to run a cool as possible (and have as small a heatsink as possible), and that listening tests had been run that seemed to imply that this crossover distortion was inaudible. (You know, blind tests run by Bob Carver).
Well, Mark and I decided to try the obvious. We would just turn up the quiescent current a bit (pot controlled) and see what happens. Maybe his mom would be happier. What happened was two fold: First, the subjective distortion dropped and his mom was happier, BUT also ALMOST ALL THE HIGH FREQUENCY subjective balance was also lost. Mark asked me if we could have changed the bandwidth significantly, and I said no, BUT it appears that the DW electrostatic loudspeakers had fudged the specified frequency response, and the DISTORTION was filling in the loss for Mark and me, but it did NOT fool his mom. The next time I visited Mark, he had an electrostatic tweeter perched on top. Later, DW added a tweeter, as well. And so it goes.
Thank goodness that Mark's mom had an opinion of her own that we could ultimately learn from.
If anyone ever said that, I must have missed it. Can you point me to these persons so that I can correct that egregious misapprehension?
It was this guy:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
se
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