OK, I have been questioned, by SY, about my understanding of English & now by you - so let me deal with your use of "not".
Here's the statement you made
By removing the double negatives in this statement it becomes
- so you are saying that a claim was made - just using the word "not" doesn't negate it as a claim.
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Yeah, but i wanted to replace the Eichmann case which is very thin, if i start with your connectors probably the machinist will have an easier job and will do 100 instead of 1000 min pieces.
One day, when i finish my amps...
cheers.
A little back on topic, the "impulse" response of a phono cartridge. First off I don't see it being symmetric at all. Secondly on a positive impulse-like vinyl feature the stylus will leave the surface and exercise the mechanical properties of the vinyl on its return (this can be seen on actual data). Once the thermal properties of the matierial are involved the problem is much more difficult.
In researching stylus geometries I finally found an answer to something that has bothered me for years. The actual contact length for a .2mil elliptical and line contact stylus are the same (~3.5 microns). The height and therefore the contact area are very different. This is why the third octave noise intermods are not much different.
One more thing even more on topic. It is pretty easy to argue that the tip mass resonance is decoupled enough from the motor assembly that damping it with cartridge loading is not very effective. I might be wrong but I would love to see some real evidence.
In researching stylus geometries I finally found an answer to something that has bothered me for years. The actual contact length for a .2mil elliptical and line contact stylus are the same (~3.5 microns). The height and therefore the contact area are very different. This is why the third octave noise intermods are not much different.
One more thing even more on topic. It is pretty easy to argue that the tip mass resonance is decoupled enough from the motor assembly that damping it with cartridge loading is not very effective. I might be wrong but I would love to see some real evidence.
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So what are you saying Scott? Have you or your associates measured what happens when a high bandwidth phono cartridge mistracks? As you should know (by now), I certainly have, and the effective risetime emulates TIM 30, AFTER RIAA EQ is applied.
At the same time: SACD, 30 ips analog recording, and some popular measurement microphones used for decades for master recording, have the same 10us risetime.
I have personally measured vinyl record mistracking and 30ips analog recording, the B&K app notes show microphone risetime, and Sony showed the risetime of its SACD playback. They are all very close in worst case dV/dt, and this sets MY design criterion for making high quality audio.
At the same time: SACD, 30 ips analog recording, and some popular measurement microphones used for decades for master recording, have the same 10us risetime.
I have personally measured vinyl record mistracking and 30ips analog recording, the B&K app notes show microphone risetime, and Sony showed the risetime of its SACD playback. They are all very close in worst case dV/dt, and this sets MY design criterion for making high quality audio.
The mathematical model for cables of all types is one of the most well understood and highest correlation formula when compared to testing data we have. I'm referrig to the "Telegrapher's Equation." It gives the lump sum parameter equivalent of the distributed parameter network of a cable.
"Listening tests are also acceptable"
I can't agree. This is a common and often repeated error, so frequently stated that I'm sure a lot of people believe it. A cable connection has a very specific electrical function to perform, namely connecting two nodes in a circuit without distorting or in any way attenuating the signal at frequencies and power levels of interest to the proper functioning of the network it's in. That is the only valid criteria to judge the merits of a cable. If cables perform their functions well and the results are less than pleasing, the place to look for problems is elsewhere. A cable is not intended to be a control element. Usually when it is used as one its stinks for that purpose although there were the rare exceptions such as when twisted wires were used as "tweaks" by functioning as small value capacitors in early television sets. Cable parameters when used as a control element give results that are unpredictable from one system to another, are not adjustable, and are very expensive. Other means are much cheaper, more predictable, and adjustable for particular circumstances.
The world standard for wire is Belden. There is nothing about wire that is known that Belden doesn't know. But as an industrial supplier they have to be cautious about their advertising claims. If they make outrageously laughable claims that can't be substantiated by test data, wild claims like cottage audiophile wire industry makes, their industrial users would laugh them out of the market, they wouldn't be take seriously about anything else they said either.
Standards for the performance of signal wire were well established by the 1920s or 1930s back when the IEEE was called the IRE (International Radio Engineer's League.) Requirements for transmission of audio, video, multiplexed telephone, various rf and data signals resulted in the development of wire that is inexpensive, reliable, and performs its function virtually flawlessly for all practical intents and purposes. The aftermarket audiophile wire industry plays on ignorance, fears, and hopes of its prospective customers to sell solutions to problems that don't exist. And it seems to work very profitably for some. In a way I have to congratulate them. They've managed to stay under the FTC's radar screen all these years. Usually it's just a matter of money but when it gets to power cords that don't have a prayer of getting a UL listing because their design is so dangerously flawed such as eliminating equipment grounding, that's when the government should really step in and take a firm hand in putting a stop to it.
Confused/teach me.
Granted. Was it ever thought to be - my understanding was that the loading is of the output coils...like audio coupling transformer optimal secondary coil loading to kill electrical resonance/peaking response.
Eric.
I Heard They Stink...
Eric.
That sounds subjective and anecdotal....Any test conditions, double blind testing, even blind testing results to substantiate that assertion, ummm claim !.Oh no. They really do smell wonderful!
se
Eric.
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Understood and agreed.
Also agree on dodgy cable electrical characteristics causing dodgy gear to exhibit varying and unprdictable sonic characteristics.
Listening tests are valuable imo in discerning problems, test gear for defining problems.
The standard lump sum parameter description does typically not include dielectric properties.
Audiophile cables sometimes make claims of dielectrics.
Agreed on Beldon - the beauty of Beldon is that their cable parameters are defined and guaranteed allowing predictable design and performance.
Eric.
The problem is, that only spheric tips have pretty much a constant contact area, as long as it is mounted on a usual cantilever.
Because the cantilever have to move, it changes the angle of the contact area. Since it is elliptic and not round , the area will vary depending of modulation. Of course, spheric tips have the same angle /phase error ,but the contact area does not change this way.
This creates specific distorsions for every kind of stylus and is part of the specific *sound* of every cartridge.
With spheric tips of radius apx 17 mikrometers the distorsions are known and can be calculated by math and thus a compensation can be made ( was also done sooner).
Tip mass, motor mass, cantilever mass and so on create a resonance. If well done, it will be around 19 Khz. Almost with MCs. And now you can load resistive for damping. ( you can also calculate the math)
At MMs the cable capacity and 47 Kohm loading will shift the resonance in this area also.
Since cutting heads in the 60s /70s had a resonance in this area, a notch filter was used, to avoid destroing them.
Now the cartridge resonance could compensate this loss pretty good.
You are entitled to agree or disagree. However, sound reproduction systems are all about listening. For me, there is only one criterion by which I evaluate any piece of gear for my sound system: the way it sounds. When I listen to music through my sound system, I listen, I hear, I don't read mathematical equations in order to enjoy the music.
Yes, it is subjective. And as such, it doesn't come with any burden of proof.
se
Some are interested in proofs, others are interested in the quality of what they hear.
And some should simply be content with their subjective experience and stop going beyond that by making unsubstantiated objective claims and then getting their panties in a bunch when those claims are rightfully questioned and/or challenged.
If they did, there would be a hell of a lot less arguing on audio forums.
se
Do They Taste Good Too ?....
Hypocriticism
Hypocriticism n. Colorful commentary, typically unhelpful advice, offered by a person guilty of making the same mistakes.
When my alcoholic father tells me, "You know, you really shouldn't drink so much," I always make sure to thank him for his hypocriticism.
hypocrite , criticism , stupidity , useless advice.
Haha.
Hypocriticism
Hypocriticism n. Colorful commentary, typically unhelpful advice, offered by a person guilty of making the same mistakes.
When my alcoholic father tells me, "You know, you really shouldn't drink so much," I always make sure to thank him for his hypocriticism.
hypocrite , criticism , stupidity , useless advice.
Haha.
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Now that is perfectly fair comment. I do suspect that you (SE) do hear differences in cables but are disciplined enough to not make subjective claims.
Care to comment?
You do love repeating that we are all in error. If the cable makes your amplifier oscillate at 50MHz some will say you can't hear 50MHz so it doesn't matter who's right? And yes this did happen at a listening test and the difference was not obvious.
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Now that is perfectly fair comment. I do suspect that you (SE) do hear differences in cables but are disciplined enough to not make subjective claims.
I already have. I said previously that I make the cables I make because to me they sound good, look good, feel good, and even smell good.
se
My only point was that line contact stilii are not chiseled down as sharp as a cutting stylus or they would destroy the LP. "The math" involves a lot of mechanical constants not usually published, and as JC said the sonic loading effects are not due to this damping but the usual anecdotal listening tests by the GEB.
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