John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
SY, I doubt that winemakers have so little faith in their product that they just can't TASTE the wine and tell if it is a successful product. In the case of audio design, we use the typically, usually discredited (apparently for many topics) reviews, who are sometimes politically motivated to recommend or condemn a product, sometimes paid 'under the table' and most times, trying to do a good job at reviewing. I rely on independent reviewers that I rarely contact, although we may exchange short greetings at CES. I keep this distance, on purpose. I want accurate feedback, too! How else can I get an OBJECTIVE evaluation of my designs?
 
Simon, the QUESTION IS, whether a 'scientifically conducted' double blind test is the 'gold standard' which tells all what is what?

For sensory analysis, yes. Absolutely. Evaluations without blinding are anecdotes at best, and would be subject to ridicule by any competent researcher- not to mention totally disqualifying for any sort of publication in a research journal.
 
Maybe SY is right. ALL good power amps sound the same, you are wasting your time separating them sonically. Pick the one that has best looks, costs right, and and has the most features. Measurements will not help you, because all amps sound the same, from the get-go! How do we know? Double blind tests tell us this is so. Certainly EVERY amp that I have ever made should sound the same. Why? Because I design them all for smooth frequency response and good damping factor. I have done this since 1968, and I will continue to design this way. Now, what about class B vs class A-B? Well, according to double blind testing results, there should be little or no difference. Bob Carver ran such a test decades ago. Everything else must be your imagination.
What do I recommend? I recommend the Quad 405 power amp. It has an interesting story, runs cool, measures OK, and John Atkinson was not able to pick it out from another more expensive amp in a double-blind listening test.
Is this OK?
 
Unfortunately, the headline does not accurately reflect the story contents. What the research showed was that people couldn't sort two wines correctly as to cost, not that they taste the same.

Yes, the headline was totally misleading. They simply did not test for discrimination (guessing from the short description). Maybe there is a full text still waiting for acceptance.

AFAIR (not in the study mentioned above) the terms "single blind" and "double blind" were used within the wine business in a different manner as usual. That makes it sometimes different to compare the results with other sensory test results.

I still don´t know if anybody _has_ to use controlled tests for development (audio, cooking, record producing, conducting, wine making) - because there are a lot of people out there, who are doing a very good job based on their perception alone- but one can learn a lot about human perception by doing comprehensive controlled listening tests.

And controlled listening tests done right can be extremely sensitive. There exists a lot of exellent material about perceptual evaluation.

Finally the ITU gave free online access to all current ITU-R Recommendations & Reports:

List of all ITU-R.BS papers Broadcasting service (sound)

BS.1116*:*Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems including multichannel sound systems

BS.1284*:*General methods for the subjective assessment of sound quality

Bech and Zacharov wrote an very informative book (a must read for every one interested):

Perceptual Audio Evaluation - Theory, Method and Application
Søren Bech, Nick Zacharov Wiley::perceptual Audio Evaluation - Theory, Method and Application
 
Last edited:
Certainly EVERY amp that I have ever made should sound the same. Why? Because I design them all for smooth frequency response and good damping factor. I have done this since 1968, and I will continue to design this way.

As long as they're not clipping, yes. That's one reason I have said repeatedly that (in contrast to much high end gear), your designs are solid and reliable, sonically neutral, and that consumers can buy them with confidence.
 
Now, in summation, I do NOT necessarily believe that all wines taste the same, of the same type. I am pretty sure of this from my direct experience, even though, unlike many of my critics, I do NOT tend to invest big-time into wine and its taste differences. This is WHY I brought attention to the test here for your discussion:
It was a scientifically conducted double blind test, with the designers of the test most likely predicting the outcome in advance. Sound familiar? They attempted to be 'objective' with the test procedure, and somehow got null results. Does that also sound, familiar? Now, why did they get the results that they got, how could they get more 'informative' results? That is the real question, not whether I know anything about testing or not.

We don't know anything about the test. To someone with a bad cold an apple and a raw potato taste the same. Hold your nose and try it. So if they are unskilled tasters, are tired, have no sense of smell, or are somehow physically or mentally unsuited to participate in the test, then the results of no difference is exactly what you'd expect. By analogy, would I trust someone to design high fidelity audio equipment that is going to cost thousands of dollars if he were making judgments on listening alone and had exposed himself repeatedly to sounds of 130 db? You bet your sweet $%^#& I wouldn't.

"I want accurate feedback, too! How else can I get an OBJECTIVE evaluation of my designs?"

Send it to me. I'll let you know if it stinks. :D
 

Attachments

  • OLM.JPG
    OLM.JPG
    168.1 KB · Views: 252
As long as they're not clipping, yes. That's one reason I have said repeatedly that (in contrast to much high end gear), your designs are solid and reliable, sonically neutral, and that consumers can buy them with confidence.

WTF???

What is "sonically neutral"???

How do you know John's amps are "sonically neutral", "in contrast to much high end gear"???

What measurement tells you that???

Have you done a double-blind test to establish that???

I think you are full of sh!t.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.