Are saying that no one, under no condition and under no test procedure can have a genuine impression of the SQ of audio system, free of the Placebo Effect?
Thank you for putting yourself in the open, I appreciate it very much.
The consideration of value for money is obvious and I believe that everyone, save possibly few millionaires, have that consideration.
However I'm unclear about the first part.
If you don't trust your listening ability, why use it?
If you do trust your listening ability, why use reputation and technical specifications?
A personal side note.
I'm extremely suspicious about reputation.
There is the very well known case of Lexicon selling their BD-30 Blu-ray Player for $3,500 which turned out to be nothing else than Oppo BDP-83 (MSRP $500), placed in their own box: Lexicon BD-30 Blu-ray Player (Oppo BDP-83 Clone) Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics . I've seen other products by manufacturers of high reputation having pure garbage inside their shining boxes.
Indeed, no sound reproduction system, at any cost, sounds like live music. However some systems get closer than others. For me, live music is what shapes my taste and what serves me as a reference.
I attend live concerts on a regular basis, about once to twice a month. Mostly classical music, some times jazz.
I agree with you that the price of most audio gear labeled as "high end" is inflates, without any reasonable proportion to its' production cost.
As for cheaper alternatives, doing the same: that depends on what you are looking for in audio gear. Some people are satisfied with mp3. Others have different taste and preferences.
Did you choose the components for your sound system by controlled tests?
If yes, can you please share the procedure you use?
John, I'm well aware of what goes on. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm only trying to have civilized discussion in order to explore the issue.
You can't be free of the placebo effect ... conditioned reflexes are just a part of us. But that doesn't mean the ear/brain doesn't work. It works really well.
If you've ever taken a familiar path to work and maybe had your mind on something else ... you might find you can't remember the trip.
We can only consciously focus on one thing at a time and the rest is the subconscious and conditioned reflexes. Amazing people aren't wrecking all over the place. Of course, if you're looking at your cell phone conditioned reflexes don't do you much good.
Audio is just a fun hobby to most of us. And to many audiophiles knowing what we're listening to is part of that. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean people can learn and maybe even hear things that some others don't think they can.
Only a blind test will prove it. But, so what.
John
I never said I can be free of the placebo effect, all I said was that there ways to neutralize it. Some medicines actually work, in spite of and on top of the placebo effect. Those medicines that actually work don't make the placebo effect go away, they simply work on top of it.
Let me give you a very crude example.
I once hooked up to my setup a highly credited power amp. It had loud hum. (The source of the hum was a problem with the interconnect wires). However, the hum was actually there, it was really there, in spite of my initial expectations for quiet sound. This is but crude example for real phenomenon being heard, a phenomenon opposed to the initial expectations. Now, if someone comes and tells me that I cannot possibly detect hum in my system because of the placebo effect, all I can do is smile quietly. No, I'm not free of the placebo effect, but in spite of the placebo effect and on top of it, there are (sometimes) real and actual phenomena I actually hear.
Don't Argue With Idiots Either...
I could say much more, but that would just start more arguments.
Dave.
Thanks Joshua.
I could say much more, but that would just start more arguments.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Arguments seem to be unavoidable here, whether you'll write in brief and very concise manner and whether you'll write at length and elaborate.
No, nor has anyone ever suggested that ABX is the only acceptable format where blind testing is appropriate.
Now, since we've dealt with that question about a million times, why don't you skip to the end and tell us how placebo effects can be neutralized- and without introducing other non-auditory cues.
Hi all, good reading and it has made me think...
When a golden eared audiophile has a real inner experience of hearing minute differences (say between electronics) that later disappear when he is not allowed to see the equipment, I conclude that his inner experience is not based on an external reality. However to reach this conclusion I have to make the assumption that his actual hearing sensitivity is exactly the same in both instances. How can I know it is?
When a golden eared audiophile has a real inner experience of hearing minute differences (say between electronics) that later disappear when he is not allowed to see the equipment, I conclude that his inner experience is not based on an external reality. However to reach this conclusion I have to make the assumption that his actual hearing sensitivity is exactly the same in both instances. How can I know it is?
I never said otherwise.
I'm not conciously saying: aha, this amp has a good reputation, so it must sound great, but I have no doubt that it somehow plays a role.
And I have no problem enjoying sound and music from, say, my latest self-designed and build amp even if I know that in a blind test it probably sounds identical to the previous one. What else can you do? But the realisation prevents me from saying to others: build this amp because it sounds better than anything else. That's a luxury I have because I'm not into selling them.
Really? The impression I get from your posts is that you support anything Mr Curl says, whatever the contents. Surely that must be based on reputation?
jan didden
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