I would like to state the obvious:
Nelson Pass, Charles Hansen, and I have been in direct competition for several decades. We, of course, are not the only competition, but we compete in both TAS and Stereophile for ratings. Trust me, we like to win.
It gives us incentive to try to make better and better products, hopefully leaving no stone unturned. I have looked with envy where Charles and Nelson have gotten first place in these publications. I can only compete in the performance/dollar category
with Parasound. Constellation is priced in the stratosphere, but it competes very well with Nelson and Charles. We just don't throw something together with the lowest cost parts that many think we could get away with, and then expect reviewer success. In fact, one or two subtle mistakes in a design can virtually condemn the product to obscurity in a short time.
It is not like, to us, a matter of promotion, excessive cost, or reviewer bias. It is just about what people (other than us) hear and tell others about our individual designs.
Nelson Pass, Charles Hansen, and I have been in direct competition for several decades. We, of course, are not the only competition, but we compete in both TAS and Stereophile for ratings. Trust me, we like to win.
It gives us incentive to try to make better and better products, hopefully leaving no stone unturned. I have looked with envy where Charles and Nelson have gotten first place in these publications. I can only compete in the performance/dollar category
with Parasound. Constellation is priced in the stratosphere, but it competes very well with Nelson and Charles. We just don't throw something together with the lowest cost parts that many think we could get away with, and then expect reviewer success. In fact, one or two subtle mistakes in a design can virtually condemn the product to obscurity in a short time.
It is not like, to us, a matter of promotion, excessive cost, or reviewer bias. It is just about what people (other than us) hear and tell others about our individual designs.
Every pappy loves his latest (brain)child, that's only natural.
Because I believe in this, I never ever rate my own stuff, I also believe I've done a good job if people I know hear well and have developed perception ability say I have.
But then, the key difference between me and you guys is that I don't have to compete with anyone.
Because I believe in this, I never ever rate my own stuff, I also believe I've done a good job if people I know hear well and have developed perception ability say I have.
But then, the key difference between me and you guys is that I don't have to compete with anyone.
Would we then have to buy special 3D goggles and/or earphone "translators" to listen to music from such a device?
Measured in what fashion though? To me time domain behaviour is where the interesting stuff happens, so I would like extensive runs to be carried out, with a variety of musical styles being sampled - and then competent(!!!) DiffMaker type analysis being performed ... this is where the devil's in the details.
The big failure of intelligent audio testing is that it never gets very far out of the gate - people are just excited by having somewhat expensive test gear give them numbers, that look so "precise" on the screen ... very little interest in exploring further, to understand and precise correlate what they hear as being "wrong" in the replay system, with a measurement.
If one has a real interest in improving SQ, rather than just getting better numbers from a standard metric then this is where to go - as Pavel says, improve your playback chain,Yes, one of your test tracks as I recall
We used to have a saying for lesser audio gear that grated on the ears calling it "chromium plated treble".
. When I want to do a quick appraisal of an unknown system I would put on precisely such a piece, the distortion - yes, it is distortion that is causing that unpleasantness - screams at you, gives the aware listener an enormous amount of information ...Interesting that Yes albums are mentioned - I was never a fan of the group, but an audio friend is ... in my earlier visits he put on a classic record - oh, dear
. The problem wasn't the recording - rather, the latter was exciting, highlighting the deficiences of his playback at the time, in the most obvious way possible. Right, I said, this will a very useful piece of test gear - you will be able to measure your progress by how the sound of this recording improves as you make advances in optimising the system ... why one doesn't need anything but perceptive ears to "get" where things are at ...
Mastering monitor SPL is mission critical.
I have release CDs of live recordings of a local band (Vdelli) in a particular local venue.
I have live mixed this band, many many times in that same venue, and have repeatedly achieved THE best live club sound that I have ever heard...the band are master musicians, and this of course makes the job of pulling good live sound so much easier.
Evidently, these live recordings were mastered at far too high monitoring level.
The vibe of the band is there in spades, the sound of the venue and the sound of the band are there in spades, BUT, the sense of power in the bass is diminished, and the highs are subjectively too hot.
These sonic faults unfortunately quite spoil the replay listening experience, especially for me as I am intimately familiar with the live real sound of all the songs in the recording.
I should try remastering these recordings and see if I can fix these issues, if only for my own benefit.
All of this is justification for tone controls in high quality replay systems.
Andrew Russell's design is a good example - Ovation Symphony Line Preamplifier
The Quad designs with tilt control are worth consideration also.
Some sage advice from Bob Katz below...
View attachment katz_1999_secret_mastering.pdf
Dan.
From behind the console...I am mixing for me, don't forget
.More seriously, every good sound guy goes for sound check walks...in front of stage, dance floor, at the bar, throughout the inside of the venue.
If possible (venue dependent), going out into the beer garden and then noting the sound approaching the door and then entering into the sound room is very valuable also.
Once you have these references, you settle for a sound at the console position which is a representative average of the whole venue.
The trick is to get a fat, clear, clean and musical PA + stage sound, in room resultant....the job of the PA is to magnify/enlarge the stage sound without dominating the stage sound.
Once this is achieved, pretty much anywhere in the venue sounds good.
Once the sound is good, it is best to essentially leave as is, and not fiddle.
This allows the band to do the rest, and they will adjust their output to give a good total sound.
The best example I have seen of this was a Chain show in Brisbane.
The operator was all over the desk for the first two songs, and then moved his stool back three metres to against a wall, folded his arms and didn't touch the console for the rest of the performance....great sounding show.
The very worst I have seen was Weddings, Parties, Anything in Karatha.
The operator was constantly, and I mean constantly tweaking every control he had, throughout the performance.
The sound started out a bit rough, but devolved to an ear bleeding sorry mess by the end of the show....so much so that I was tempted to walk out if I were not dependent on a lift home.
The operators that I know who do arenas and big outdoor festivals do not touch a drop of alcohol or other stuffs before or during the show...after might different
.Dan.
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Wake up and smell the roses, have you realised how big electronics is in the world, I cant be ars** to chat the rubbish with you any more. Audio is analogue or digital/analogue, its nothing special it doesn't have its own physics....we are talking signal integrity and that is studied in great detail and has been for many years, and what. Sorry but this is what is really bugging me about trying to determine what is critical in audio reproduction, smoke screens regarding things that have no real effect...and people promote silly theories and ideas that just distract from what is critical...this is not helped by self proclaimed Audio guru's who like to promote these myths and fantasies.
I'm done, even when you put up references and real data it is ignored because it doesn't fit into the Audio fantasy physics universe.
And yes I am tetchy today
Dan,
Doing live sound and recording at the same time is probably one of the hardest things to get right. You know the main house mix would rarely if ever be the same as the recorded mix, it just never works out that the house EQ is going to be correct on the recording. Been there done that with Wally Heider big mixing trucks recording while we were doing the house PA. The last Steppen Wolf concert I believe. That must have been fun since they couldn't even see the performers.
Doing live sound and recording at the same time is probably one of the hardest things to get right. You know the main house mix would rarely if ever be the same as the recorded mix, it just never works out that the house EQ is going to be correct on the recording. Been there done that with Wally Heider big mixing trucks recording while we were doing the house PA. The last Steppen Wolf concert I believe. That must have been fun since they couldn't even see the performers.
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John,
If you truly wanted to do a 3D printed board that has been done for years. it just cost a lot more than a flat FR4 board is going to cost to have a contoured board. I made some laminate with glass/ polyurethane in the past. I wonder what the dielectric values would be on that material. I don't think I know anyone else who has done that. Where there is a will there is a way. It wouldn't be all that hard to make contoured boards if that was really worth it for some reason.
If you truly wanted to do a 3D printed board that has been done for years. it just cost a lot more than a flat FR4 board is going to cost to have a contoured board. I made some laminate with glass/ polyurethane in the past. I wonder what the dielectric values would be on that material. I don't think I know anyone else who has done that. Where there is a will there is a way. It wouldn't be all that hard to make contoured boards if that was really worth it for some reason.
The Vdelli live recordings were done using an outside recording truck.
I believe the mastering was monitored on JBL LSR32.
I have done live to air (community FM station) and gotten spectacular recording results, but yeah, it's pretty damm hard.
Dan.
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Don't worry ... we all have those ...And yes I am tetchy today
Why I put the effort into talking audio in the way I do is because I'm sick of listening to crap sound - too many times I've been into places where I've paid good money to be entertained, and I've had to put up with f'ing crap sound - because the audio industry as a whole hasn't got its act together and worked out what is needed to be done to always ensure reasonably clean sound.
When there is a decent standard of sound on tap every time, because a few people have cleaned out their earholes a touch more - then I might be able to relax a bit about it ...
I was thinking about how most of my music really isn't hi-fi. Some would consider it the opposite, being sampled, even chiptunes and MIDI.
But I think the mind of a composer can do amazing things. Sometimes I come across a bitty, crunchy, cheaply sampled tune where somehow the harmonics and all the idiosyncratic noises were managed by the composer to make something that is very compelling.
And often I've even found that sibilant music doesn't sound so sibilant when you're enjoying it greatly.
I must be in a contemplative mood...
But I think the mind of a composer can do amazing things. Sometimes I come across a bitty, crunchy, cheaply sampled tune where somehow the harmonics and all the idiosyncratic noises were managed by the composer to make something that is very compelling.
And often I've even found that sibilant music doesn't sound so sibilant when you're enjoying it greatly.
I must be in a contemplative mood...
That's the right place to go, IMO - for me, a system works when I can put anything, absolutely anything - at any volume from barely audible, to ear shreddingly loud ... and it always sounds like music, it always make sense as such; that I don't have to make excuses for it, and pretend that I can't hear it not being "quite right" ...
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