I don't really know, but I know how it sounds. Sometimes just left and right, no soundstage; voices and instruments all form one mélange, unable to separate, lots of distorted sounds, combinations of these.
I often wonder how whoever recorded and mixed such a thing listened to it.
I just bought a vintage Bruce Springsteen from 1992, an EP with four versions of the same track from an LP.
The cover said that they were various mixes of the track, 2 on one side, 2 on the other.
I thoght, that might be interesting to compare mixes. The record was brand new, zero plays.
Well, each and everyone is literally unlistenable, compressed, no dynamic range, no sound stage, just something that's barely different from pink noise.
Who produces such crap???
That's what I call bad sound, and no hi end system can improve that in any way.
Jan
You are given permission to be happy! Yes, detail exposed and "bad" recordings can be convincing, in fact the latter only is possible if all the detail is reproduced, because they give the cues that you're listening to real people, instruments and environments.
Exploring the ultra fine detail thing is right on the money, but it's not an option, it's actually a step on the path to getting the sound quality that I keep referring to. What normally happens is the detail is now revealed through the enhancements to date, but it very easily makes you uncomfortable, with many recordings it's just too much, you quickly overload on the experience. But it's not that the detail itself is a problem, rather that the remaining low level distortion is doing too much damage to the waveform of that detail, the brain becomes stressed trying to decipher it.
What has to be done is pinpoint precisely what is causing that low level distortion to be part of the sound, and eliminate or attenuate it sufficiently. This can be a major struggle, I've pulled my hair out on many occasions, given up in disgust lots of times, and even walked away from audio entirely for some years, from the frustrations of the process.
However, my stance, for me, has been vindicated because ultimately I was able to get over the hurdles, even if only for short periods of listening time - meaning I was on the right path ...
Remember the little demo I had with you about dynamic range and compression?
The biggest spend on recorded music does not come from the likes of us.....it comes from those who are most unlikely to have a system which has any decent resolution. I have a Who tape from the Power Station NY - complete with hand written mix notes. [It has mono, stereo and quad mixes]. The standard is very high indeed, whereas a good original pressing of the same music which I have is appalling.
[I suspect that if we graded our libraries we would find that the more popular the music, the lower the sound quality of the retail disk.]
[I suspect that if we graded our libraries we would find that the more popular the music, the lower the sound quality of the retail disk.]
Just looking at the full suite of following comments, most people are pessimistic, only John appreciates the possibilities. I appreciate that it's hard to fathom that it can happen, probably only directly experiencing it will convince one. It certainly bowled me over in the early days, and every now and again in the inbetween years I tried a recording which had been too much of a mess earlier on, and said, "I'll be damned!!"
I'm going to pull out that tedious "my wife in the kitchen" cliche now, sorry, but at the time it really told me I was heading in the right direction. I used this Status Quo greatest hits CD in the early days, because it gave me instant feedback as to progress made. This really, really irked my wife, the music style wasn't her thing at all, it was "I'm sick of that gawdawful rubbish you keep putting on, how can you stand listening to it!!". Then one day everything snapped into place, that CD was at a peak of playback quality, and my wife walked in and said, "Wow, I really love the energy of this, makes me want to dance - what is it?" and I said, "Well, remember saying how you're sick to death of listening to that Status Quo crap ...? " ...
I'm going to pull out that tedious "my wife in the kitchen" cliche now, sorry, but at the time it really told me I was heading in the right direction. I used this Status Quo greatest hits CD in the early days, because it gave me instant feedback as to progress made. This really, really irked my wife, the music style wasn't her thing at all, it was "I'm sick of that gawdawful rubbish you keep putting on, how can you stand listening to it!!". Then one day everything snapped into place, that CD was at a peak of playback quality, and my wife walked in and said, "Wow, I really love the energy of this, makes me want to dance - what is it?" and I said, "Well, remember saying how you're sick to death of listening to that Status Quo crap ...? " ...
Well it's springsteen , usually unlistenable by any standard ...
Not privy, why not put up a copy .....
I think you are getting too wrapped up in schoolyard type digs going on here. Just because kids like to melt army men with a magnifying glass doesn't mean they are un-happy.
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Springsteen had been mentioned on another forum, as a prime example of how bad it gets - I've never been into his sound, but got a CD, done in the 90's, from the libary about a year or two ago ... okay, the full studio processing thing, dense sound, system will need to be close to optimum to handle this. Right, big warmup, shut down all sources of interference, apply all the temporary "fixes" - here we go ... big, big, deep, intense sound, lots of inner soundstages, within the main stage, a very complex mix of sound textures which unravels, and all makes sense - the experience is somewhat like listening to symphonic works, and 'seeing' the different sections of the orchestra doing their thing in a particular space.
So, haven't become a Springsteen fan,, but understand what the musicians, and the record producer, were making happen in each song, from their POV ...
So, haven't become a Springsteen fan,
, but understand what the musicians, and the record producer, were making happen in each song, from their POV ...
Frank,
You keep on saying you have taken all these measures to your system that has resulted in this amazing sound that makes every CD sound good without compromising anything - but you never seem to say what any of these measures are apart from soldering all your leads.
I just summarised some of the things I did to my amp to to get it sounding better a few posts up. I could add to that and I could do similar summaries for Speakers and DAC etc - wouldn't take that long to tell the whole story.
But from what you say it's your story that we all should all be listening to.
Are you under some commercial constraint not to divulge ur secrets ?
If not, I don't comprehend your reticance.
You keep on saying you have taken all these measures to your system that has resulted in this amazing sound that makes every CD sound good without compromising anything - but you never seem to say what any of these measures are apart from soldering all your leads.
I just summarised some of the things I did to my amp to to get it sounding better a few posts up. I could add to that and I could do similar summaries for Speakers and DAC etc - wouldn't take that long to tell the whole story.
But from what you say it's your story that we all should all be listening to.
Are you under some commercial constraint not to divulge ur secrets ?
If not, I don't comprehend your reticance.
Anyone who looks at all my posts can easily put the full message together - I've been asked a similar question like yours a number of times and have given what I considered a reasonable answer in response.
I very specifically listed the steps to getting optimum sound from an extremely midfi, Aldi TV and Blu-ray player combo, and suggested that others try it, to see if they pick up on what I'm talking about to some degree. Well, apparently no-one has, zero feedback 'from the field' - what more can I do about the matter?
Anyway, to repeat myself for the n'th time, full integrity of the playback path is a starting point - the entire system is a single circuit from the POV of signal processing. Therefore, from the moment mains power leaves the wall socket until an audio signal passes through the voice coil of a speaker driver - that is the audio circuit! Every simple, pressure only, metal to metal contact is a weakness - does improving it make a difference?
jn has already pushed the earth loop thing a number of times - that may be relevant.
Interference in all forms most times is a part of the story. To test, I shut down everything that can possibly interfere, listen, and reverse the process. That tells me where there may be problems - and solving all of them can be very frustrating - a bandaid solution is to simply shut down the house electrically when doing serious listening, this won't make you popular,
!Interference in the form of 'dirty' mains power can't so easily tossed aside, I've tried many, many DIY solutions which anyone can find out there, over the years - and, yes, some of my designs are IP, but that doesn't stop anyone else achieving exactly the same using a different technique.
The real point is that what is necessary for any particular system will vary - giving a mindless set of steps is pointless, because then the person will miss an obvious defect, staring him in the face, because he's doing the 'fixing' in parrot fashion - duuuh, I did what Frank said, and the sound's worse, he's just full of it! Unless one approaches the process from the angle that one just keeps looking for problems until the sound comes right, then it most likely will never happen - the person tweaking will give up, and no-one's happy ...
As an example of how I would approach "solving" the issues for a system I would start with a 'testing' CD - and the Springsteen tracks just mentioned sound just about ideal. For a person whose system was reproducing these so they sounded a mess, I would go through a series of listening tests to pick where and why it was sounding bad, what was actually not right in the playback causing the problems - as a simple example, was it a weakness in the power supplies? If adjusting the volume, the tonality and structure of the sound, "distortion", changes, then it's highly likely that the voltage rails are not stable enough ...
Frank,
It seems that you will not acknowledge that some recordings are just not any good, that the recording process was poorly executed. You keep saying you can correct any music even if there seems to be a consensus that the quality of the material is flawed. The reality is that even with a so called perfect audio system these recording will never be audibly repairable. I would be much more worried about an excellent recording not sounding right than the other any day. If you take a black and white movie and have the best or worst TV in the world that movie is not going to turn into a colored film no matter how much you change the signal chain. Same for a lousy recording.
It seems that you will not acknowledge that some recordings are just not any good, that the recording process was poorly executed. You keep saying you can correct any music even if there seems to be a consensus that the quality of the material is flawed. The reality is that even with a so called perfect audio system these recording will never be audibly repairable. I would be much more worried about an excellent recording not sounding right than the other any day. If you take a black and white movie and have the best or worst TV in the world that movie is not going to turn into a colored film no matter how much you change the signal chain. Same for a lousy recording.
Agreed, yup, that's what it's all about.
For example, I have a Jimmy Rodgers CD, transcribed quite nicely from an original disc (shellac ?), complete with whistling and yodeling, lol.
On a mediocre or lousy system, this CD quick smart will drive you out of the room with bleeding ears, and set the missus and the neighbours' dogs barking.....even the neighbours' missuses barking.
On my good systems, however, this recording is altogether different.
The record wear, pops and crackles are clear, the distortions in the recording/disc/transcription are clear, the mastering roll off is clear.
BUT these distortions subjectively disappear for the most, not drawing attention to themselves, but constituting a consistent 'signature' of the recording, that the ears can soon learn to forgive/ignore/filter.
The in room resultant is the matter of fact presented recording, with the distortions/noises taking a way back seat.
This is where the fun begins...the groove, the vibe, the feelings are all there, captured like they are captured in a good photograph.
Adding to the fun, is allowing one's self to be magically transported back in time to that 1927-1933 period, and experience what this style of music was like, back then.
If this track Jimmie Rodgers- TB Blues - YouTube doesn't give you goose bumps, and choking back tears, well then your system isn't quite up to par (ok, the CD version I have is much more 'live/alive' than the Youtube audio...Google Jimmy Rodgers TB Blues...there are FLAC downloads available).
Yes it is that 'irritation' factor is that I am getting at.
I fully concur that the upper harmonics cause/contribute, most particularly the 5th, to the 'irritation' factor.
It is disarming/informative to experience just how little change in the 5th will radically change the presentation and enjoyment of music...the ratios of the harmonics are mission critical also....if that 5th sticks up above any of the lower harmonics, then your ears are gonna hurt.
Any changes to the 5th, radically changes the IMD ear bleed signature also.
I have lived with a particularly fine tube amp with switchable feedback - http://www.elan.com.au/CMA-01 Valve Amp
In feedback mode the result was dead clean, musical, enjoyable...very nicely accurate without any particular signature.
Switching to open loop changed things to a whole new level.
Foreground sounds got bigger and closer, distant sounds became more seperated and discernable, music became more bouncy, fun, and very enjoyable.
However, it was not accurate, with a (gaussian ?) response/character that while fun, was not quite 'right', dammit, lol.
I have maintained this same thought/conclusion for a very long time.
I find it is the the novice/inexperienced audiophile and some reviewers that respond to this false detail in positive ways.
Dan.
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