For any commercial venture where warranties are involved, I completely agree. For DIY, I would not think of listening to anything else (sans any SS circuits of course). It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bushel!
Not mine cup of coffee. This may be very subjective, as many issues in audio.
SS definitely measures better, but tubes bring the richness and sweetness of real acoustic instruments to life. Rock and roll or any amplified type music, many prefer SS. I love the big wall to wall sound stage, the realness of a singer, the naturalness of stringed instruments, etc that only good tubes do. SS is too much of a "paper ship on a paper sea" effect for me personally, although the best of SS is quite good, when designed properly.
How easy it is to deceive oneself! Although I doubt you would know how to admit it, Curly.
What you like, and no shame in that, is a big measure of 2nd harmonic distortion!
I could care less what distortions are involved. Tubes come the closest to sounding like real music to me. Solid state is dry and lifeless as a rule. No swell like you get when the orchestra begins, no large sound stage that fills the room wall to wall. I guess if you have never heard a good tubed system, you might not recognize what is missing. I sold all of the greatest solid state gear for years, but the best tubed gear always outperformed any great solid state amps when it came to making music magical and real.
Where do you guys dig up all this nonsense?
And how do you dig?
I’m sure it’s not by using a pitchfork.
Guys, then may I ask why are you mostly visiting the SS forum? There's a tubes forum and you may find there much more friendly people, willing to talk about tubes audio gear experiences.
Nonsense? Maybe in your world, but not in the one that I live in
Good audio is wonderful. I feel sorry if you can not recreate the type of sound that most every audiophile that I know or have had experience with strives to create with their systems. Its out there, don't give up the search
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Hi John,
Still, I find that people just figuring things out in audio tend to go through phases in perception. Like a pendulum swinging too far each way as they learn more. Right now, I figure that both Curly and Joshua are in the early phases where they've figured out that audio design is not plug 'n play, so there must be magic involved. In fact, if someone where to watch you modify a circuit and hear you announce that it will now sound better (and it does indeed), it appears as though you've tapped into mystical powers. The knowledge and experience is beyond them so they have trouble understanding just what exactly you had done.
I have an acquaintance who's beliefs ran squarely with Curly and Joshua. No problem as he had an open mind and he liked to watch. He had trouble as one audio myth after another fell to dust in his mind. This took probably 10 years or so, but I was able to watch him move through the different mind sets. Today he is pretty disillusioned about the commercial side of the audio industry and the advertising copy, but he is a realist. He was also stuck on vacuum tube equipment, but can now enjoy both solid state and hollow state. That's as long as the design is well executed.
Hey Curly, Joshua,
My guess is that you simply haven't heard a good SS amp yet. They exist. I own and use both (valve and SS) - happily. I also work with both technologies, even combined.
Anyway, hiding behind the subjectivist nonsense only makes you feel more secure in what you are saying. But this only creates confusion and hides the real issues. It also prevents you from processing what is being said here for the most part.
Why is it that the most closed minded people I run across are "subjectivists", their heads firmly jammed beneath the sand? Someone who experiments, listens and measures is forced to accept what they find. This requires that you approach an experiment with an open mind. You don't always find what you expect or want. So you become used to letting go of things you thought were "fact". It's the constant re-evaluation that allows you to separate truths from fictions as your knowledge grows.
Hi Joshua,
Whatever. Enjoy.
-Chris
Can't disagree with you on this. Looky what's happened after your post!
Well, we both look at design in similar ways. Reality forces this on you, doesn't it?
Still, I find that people just figuring things out in audio tend to go through phases in perception. Like a pendulum swinging too far each way as they learn more. Right now, I figure that both Curly and Joshua are in the early phases where they've figured out that audio design is not plug 'n play, so there must be magic involved. In fact, if someone where to watch you modify a circuit and hear you announce that it will now sound better (and it does indeed), it appears as though you've tapped into mystical powers. The knowledge and experience is beyond them so they have trouble understanding just what exactly you had done.
I have an acquaintance who's beliefs ran squarely with Curly and Joshua. No problem as he had an open mind and he liked to watch. He had trouble as one audio myth after another fell to dust in his mind. This took probably 10 years or so, but I was able to watch him move through the different mind sets. Today he is pretty disillusioned about the commercial side of the audio industry and the advertising copy, but he is a realist. He was also stuck on vacuum tube equipment, but can now enjoy both solid state and hollow state. That's as long as the design is well executed.
Hey Curly, Joshua,
My guess is that you simply haven't heard a good SS amp yet. They exist. I own and use both (valve and SS) - happily. I also work with both technologies, even combined.
Anyway, hiding behind the subjectivist nonsense only makes you feel more secure in what you are saying. But this only creates confusion and hides the real issues. It also prevents you from processing what is being said here for the most part.
Why is it that the most closed minded people I run across are "subjectivists", their heads firmly jammed beneath the sand? Someone who experiments, listens and measures is forced to accept what they find. This requires that you approach an experiment with an open mind. You don't always find what you expect or want. So you become used to letting go of things you thought were "fact". It's the constant re-evaluation that allows you to separate truths from fictions as your knowledge grows.
Hi Joshua,
Whatever. Enjoy.
-Chris
syn08, you are right. I came here to discuss the listening differences that a few people feel is unattainable. Maybe it is because of the use of solid state that these differences are not as obvious to some here. But I know plenty of audiophiles that have solid state gear that have no problems with creating great sounds with their systems.
Chris That is a joke right? I sold high end audio for over 20+ years, everything from Krell, Levinson, Classe, Spectral, Rowland, you name it
Finding good soid state was never an issue. When compared to the best tubed designs, it was never any real contest for me. I said some solid state was quite good. But not the run of the mill solid state stuff. There are a handful of really great solid state pieces of equipment that I have heard in my lifetime. Maybe I am extremely analytical when it comes to music reproduction because was around it everyday for so many years, but greatness shows itself without much fanfare when it is heard with other great equipment.I set up complete systems to get the nth degree of specialness out of them. Speakers are one of the hardest thing in the world for a great many people to set up and get to sound their best in any room. This is an art that very few seem to know how to do. You have to be a very careful listener. I have set up so many system for customers that were just frustrated trying to get their speakers to sound like they knew they could. It is often a movement of less than 6" one way or another and alignment to the listener. If you ever had to set up a room at a CES, you would know how difficult it can be to get good sound from those rooms. Certain rooms always sound better than others because the person that set up the system had a good feel for how to set up the speakers properly for the given room. It takes a lot of experience and listening carefully to the results of each move. It is a lot like a camera coming into focus. No snake oil, just a lot of experience doing it daily for years.
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Hi Scott,
While servicing this product, I was called upon constantly to explain these terms. All of them. Never mind that most people didn't understand the actual technical explanation!
I got so that I hated his ad copy, but even more the hard-core fans that would gather. You have to admit though, all that "little flag" stuff did reach the consumers, and it did create curiosity. That's what pushed sales.
Asymmetrical charge coupled detector. Another one that made me want to scream!
But at the bottom of it all, those circuits did do some effective things. They were not helpful in situations where the source material, room and speakers worked well, but they did make flawed music more listenable. And, Bob Carver wasn't nearly as destructive in his ideas as Matthew Polk has been!
-Chris
Lord yes!!!
While servicing this product, I was called upon constantly to explain these terms. All of them. Never mind that most people didn't understand the actual technical explanation!
I got so that I hated his ad copy, but even more the hard-core fans that would gather. You have to admit though, all that "little flag" stuff did reach the consumers, and it did create curiosity. That's what pushed sales.
Asymmetrical charge coupled detector. Another one that made me want to scream!
But at the bottom of it all, those circuits did do some effective things. They were not helpful in situations where the source material, room and speakers worked well, but they did make flawed music more listenable. And, Bob Carver wasn't nearly as destructive in his ideas as Matthew Polk has been!
-Chris
Hi Curly,
Sorry man, I am not joking.
Just because something is expensive and had a "name" does not make it good. You should know that! Good SS exists in places where you never expected to find it, in sleepers that missed the nod from reviewers.
I have worked on all brands of audio equipment for over 30 years. Every type and nearly every brand. I was very lucky to have been factory trained by many cutting edge companies, as well as experienced designers in the engineering departments.
What sales people didn't know was actually kept from them - for good reason. A salesman's job is to move boxes. If you tell them too much, you're very apt to lose sales if you're not careful. What else would you expect from non-technical people selling a technical product? If they push to know more, you feed them something that sounds technical, but keep it basic. Stuff like "we use mil-spec. parts", or "we use [cable of the day] for all internal wiring". The list goes on. You get the idea.
Upset? Why? What do most car salespeople know? Not engineering details I can assure you. No way will anyone explain the trade-offs in arriving at the finished product, even if they are good trade-offs. You need to move boxes, that's all.
-Chris
Sorry man, I am not joking.
Just because something is expensive and had a "name" does not make it good. You should know that! Good SS exists in places where you never expected to find it, in sleepers that missed the nod from reviewers.
I have worked on all brands of audio equipment for over 30 years. Every type and nearly every brand. I was very lucky to have been factory trained by many cutting edge companies, as well as experienced designers in the engineering departments.
What sales people didn't know was actually kept from them - for good reason. A salesman's job is to move boxes. If you tell them too much, you're very apt to lose sales if you're not careful. What else would you expect from non-technical people selling a technical product? If they push to know more, you feed them something that sounds technical, but keep it basic. Stuff like "we use mil-spec. parts", or "we use [cable of the day] for all internal wiring". The list goes on. You get the idea.
Upset? Why? What do most car salespeople know? Not engineering details I can assure you. No way will anyone explain the trade-offs in arriving at the finished product, even if they are good trade-offs. You need to move boxes, that's all.
-Chris
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