John, I am refering to digital decoupling epsecially high speed, where they are perfect for the job, due to the small packaging available and as such very small parasitic inductance. I am quite aware of their shortcomings in other areas, you pick the right capacitor type for the right job, they are still used in electronics where size is critical in areas where you wouldn't use them if you had the space.
Before the discussion [on line noise/disturbances effects on audio equipment performance] disappear in history and prompted by SY
After reading patent System with massive choke in parallel with a/c line for load conditioning I would like to ask.
Say we have some equipment (e.g. Turntable, CD unit, preamplifier, power amplifier) connected effectively to the same power utility outlet.
Let the power amplifier have a PSU with a x-former, rectifier-capacitors (i.e. non switching).
Can the primary of this power x-former under certain provisions act in the same way as the massive choke of that patent in parallel with the A/C line for all these equipment?
Having the primary of this x-former wound with more turns - less volts/turn – (*) we increase the inductance of the primary.
Apart from obtaining better sinusoidal waveform on the secondary (**), do we have an excess of energy storage (fly-wheel effect) for transient demands and less disturbances on the A/C line, in benefit to all of the units connected?
Do “oversized” x-formers provide this (potential) effect ?
George
(*) or/and in addition to this, increasing the iron cross section
(**) This is something that I have observed. Less-or no-toping of the sinusoidal peaks by increasing the primary turns by ~10% without increasing the iron. Definitely, this changes too the filling-up of the winding window, affecting the voltage regulation of the x-form
After reading patent System with massive choke in parallel with a/c line for load conditioning I would like to ask.
Say we have some equipment (e.g. Turntable, CD unit, preamplifier, power amplifier) connected effectively to the same power utility outlet.
Let the power amplifier have a PSU with a x-former, rectifier-capacitors (i.e. non switching).
Can the primary of this power x-former under certain provisions act in the same way as the massive choke of that patent in parallel with the A/C line for all these equipment?
Having the primary of this x-former wound with more turns - less volts/turn – (*) we increase the inductance of the primary.
Apart from obtaining better sinusoidal waveform on the secondary (**), do we have an excess of energy storage (fly-wheel effect) for transient demands and less disturbances on the A/C line, in benefit to all of the units connected?
Do “oversized” x-formers provide this (potential) effect ?
George
(*) or/and in addition to this, increasing the iron cross section
(**) This is something that I have observed. Less-or no-toping of the sinusoidal peaks by increasing the primary turns by ~10% without increasing the iron. Definitely, this changes too the filling-up of the winding window, affecting the voltage regulation of the x-form
That is absurd, Scott. I made MY measurements to fit the test frequencies available. You can INFER what the cap may do at other frequencies.
However, WHY did I use a 0.01uF cap with a 600 ohm source?
Because that was the output Z of the IM analyzer and the effective bandwidth was over 20KHz. HOW could that hurt anything? However, it was virtually the SAME high frequency filter that Harold Beverage used in series filter that went with his loudspeaker. In fact, his stubbornness to keep that filter just the way it was, caused me to REFUSE to work on a preamp for him, back in the late 70's. Why should I bother to work with someone so obstinate? It is hard enough to do the research in the first place.
"poor oft maligned device" is it? '-)
However, WHY did I use a 0.01uF cap with a 600 ohm source?
Because that was the output Z of the IM analyzer and the effective bandwidth was over 20KHz. HOW could that hurt anything? However, it was virtually the SAME high frequency filter that Harold Beverage used in series filter that went with his loudspeaker. In fact, his stubbornness to keep that filter just the way it was, caused me to REFUSE to work on a preamp for him, back in the late 70's. Why should I bother to work with someone so obstinate? It is hard enough to do the research in the first place.
"poor oft maligned device" is it? '-)
Barrie Gilbert thinks the Bevs are the best speakers he ever listened to. So why keep pointing out plain bad engineering as fundamental to the issue? Anyone here pad their power amp down to 600 Ohms and use ceramic input caps? Hands up now or face the yardarm.
Let me elaborate a little on another issue. It so happens that nighttime is also accompanied by a reduction in acoustic contamination and light pollution. People also tend to be creatures of habit and are prone to have daily cycles. At night I would imagine the average person’s mood and frame of mind would be different, to varying degrees. I know the average audio reviewer has nerves of steel and integrity beyond reproach, but are these factors totally ignorable (in the context of this day/night listening issue)?
I could care less what Barrie Gilbert likes. However, I did refuse to work with Beverage, because even after I explained the cap problem with his VP, AND showed him a measurement of the cap at my office, they decided to do nothing about it.
Harold Beverage apparently thought so high of himself that he didn't have to change a thing, even when he made a design oversight. It would have been too difficult to work for him under those conditions. He assumed YOUR attitude, Scott, I would not work with you either, for the same reason.
Harold Beverage apparently thought so high of himself that he didn't have to change a thing, even when he made a design oversight. It would have been too difficult to work for him under those conditions. He assumed YOUR attitude, Scott, I would not work with you either, for the same reason.
Last edited:
for Jacco
This is my float charger, the idea is to take an extra panel and connect it this way and just leave it there all the time. This way if you leave, turn off your normal charger, etc. you will always float the battery at the right voltage. I have seen data to suggest 50mV off is enough to take “years” off of the battery life. This charger might need a shottkey to isolate it in darkness, without it you have a down to zero drop series regulator that does not need much heatsinking , this has worked untouched for 9yr. on the same set of 8 Trojan T105’s (series parallel to 12V).
I have not seen this type of series regulator, but have not published it because by strict interpretation I think it violates some local codes. A case of where it does not matter off grid.
EDIT - The panel is not wasted in normal operation, under low battery conditions it kicks in and adds its current to the bulk charge no matter what the source.
This is my float charger, the idea is to take an extra panel and connect it this way and just leave it there all the time. This way if you leave, turn off your normal charger, etc. you will always float the battery at the right voltage. I have seen data to suggest 50mV off is enough to take “years” off of the battery life. This charger might need a shottkey to isolate it in darkness, without it you have a down to zero drop series regulator that does not need much heatsinking , this has worked untouched for 9yr. on the same set of 8 Trojan T105’s (series parallel to 12V).
I have not seen this type of series regulator, but have not published it because by strict interpretation I think it violates some local codes. A case of where it does not matter off grid.
EDIT - The panel is not wasted in normal operation, under low battery conditions it kicks in and adds its current to the bulk charge no matter what the source.
Attachments
Last edited:
I suspect the problem is that some of us have not bowed low enough, when in the presence of someone who (I have just learnt) wrote a (disputed?) magazine article some decades ago. Instead we insist on inspecting the emperor's current wardrobe. We ask for evidence of fabric and are shown paper; instead of buttons we are offered holes. He knows they are good clothes because they were sold to him by an old Apache woman.Wavebourn said:
Disputed is too strong, the results are certainly valid but IMHO good engineering practice can work around any of these issues. Everyone was happy when the end of the story was that $40 Teflon capacitor will get just that much better sound than a $1 PP one and audio is yet again the most sophisticated EE dicipline of all.
I think these issues are the crux of the conflict within the AES. The establishmet (Stanley L. et al) want audio engineering to be taken seriously as an important dicipline and see these side shows as a distraction that makes them look silly. Personally I don't find Mr. L that pleasant of a person but I do understand his point.
This one has me has me scratching my head. Say an amp idles at 50W but demands 100W - 400W on a sustained (many cycles of mains) basis, this is a completely passive black box after all so the power is drawn from the line anyway. How are the Joules stored magnetically any different than capacitively?
You quote the link of the patent, I guess you are referring to the patent.
The patent asks for an individual-dedicated to the purpose- big inductor shunting the live to neutral.
Quote from the ABSTRACT:
I too can’t see how the magnetic storage can supply a sustained need for energy. I am thinking only of (brief) transients.
So does the inventor. He doesn’t make a claim for covering a sustained demand.
The capacitive storage within individual equipment (at the secodary side of a x-former , past rectification) is another way of storing energy locally (DC).
It can cater for longer duration peak demands.
Evidently it will need refueling from the mains.
George
John I do PCB's for high reliability and more often than not restricted access designs (similar to your mate Baybee!), the teams I work with measure everything and have to build products to more exacting standards, than most consumer goods, have to operate at elevetaed teperature range, quite often under extreme vibration and acceleration and failure is not an option. Also there is analogue involved either for control and sensors or communications. So you dont have to be so snotty with your replies.
And no dependant on the designs COG may be used in the analoge chain. And for decoupling the DAC X7R ceramics would be used, again because of their size and suitability for the job.
But hey youve learned somthing new today regarding MLCC's so count it as a bonus.
And no dependant on the designs COG may be used in the analoge chain. And for decoupling the DAC X7R ceramics would be used, again because of their size and suitability for the job.
But hey youve learned somthing new today regarding MLCC's so count it as a bonus.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.