Audiophiler capacitors on ebay

[gil1]

Anyone used these caps? Opinions?

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=AudioPhiler&_sacat=See-All-Categories

 

[gil1]

Well, I will answer my own question...if something sounds too good to be true, it is! Went ahead and purchased some of these caps (not a lot of money) to use on the signal path of a couple of my preamps and right away the difference was noticeable, the highs and the mids became attenuated, almost like if a blanket was covering my speakers. Break in time? Well, a week after using them still sounds the same, somewhat dull. I would not recommend these caps.

 

[benchtester]

Thanks for the advice.

 

[tubesteve]

were can i calibrate my ears for hearing these differences of the cap?

 

[audi0]

Well, I will answer my own question...if something sounds too good to be true, it is! Went ahead and purchased some of these caps (not a lot of money) to use on the signal path of a couple of my preamps and right away the difference was noticeable, the highs and the mids became attenuated, almost like if a blanket was covering my speakers. Break in time? Well, a week after using them still sounds the same, somewhat dull. I would not recommend these caps.

Question: did you give them a chance to 'burn in'? Maybe you were a bit haste with your judgement?

 

[tubesteve]

human ears

some people may have noticed, that human senses are not reliable and stable in performance. therefore we engineers like to test with equipment. a small infection which even may not be noticed can easily affect the hearing. the dull effect some are noticing may more be due to the output filter snubber caps as the frequency response in the higher treble range falls down caused by them. this intended to protect speakers against RF power, and also for EMI reasons. but if there may have any doubt, buy new caps, put them into the amp, and sweep a signal with a known voltage thru the amp with a known output voltage, connect an oscilloskope and record the response. repeat the same after a time when you thinks the sound is dull. dont use speakers as a load, use fixed 4 or 8 ohm power resistors, then compare both records. differences of 3 dB ( = half power) can barely be noticed by most people. if the scope has an FFT mode, you can see results directly in dB

 

[analog_sa]

but if there may have any doubt, buy new caps, put them into the amp, and sweep a signal with a known voltage thru the amp with a known output voltage, connect an oscilloskope and record the response. repeat the same after a time when you thinks the sound is dull.

This test will obviously reveal nothing at all. I guess you are more inclined to believe we all have ear infections

 

[wintermute]

were can i calibrate my ears for hearing these differences of the cap?

Hi TubeSteve, I'd advise having a read of walt jungs Picking Capacitors article. Walt Jung is an engineer, and a very well respected one at that. His article takes an engineering approach to measuring the differences in different capacitors, and then relates what is measured to the subjective statements that people make about how capacitors sound different.

The stuff on dielectric Absorbtion, and the compression effect that it has as well as the contribution it has to adding "noise" to the signal reducing the accuracy is very enlightening.

Part 1 and Part 2 of the article for your convenience

and a quote to wet your appetite...

Dielectric absorption becomes a critical factor in circuits which are highly dependent upon speed of response. As the a.c. signal goes to zero (as in a short circuit) the trapped or bound electrons within the dielectric do not follow as fast. These electrons take a finite time to move from the dielectric to the electrode. As capacitors are typically used in audio circuitry, we could translate these defects into loss of accuracy in reproducing the fine inner detail of music, as well as the music's dynamic structure.
It is quite illuminating to consider what effect a phenomenon such as DA will have on an a.c. signal consisting largely of transients (such as audio) might have. For example, when an a.c. voltage is applied, there is a tendency for the dielectric absorption phenomenon to oppose this change in polarity.
When music is the a.c. signal, the sonic degradation is one of compression or a restriction of the dynamic range. Also, a loss of detail results, and the sharpness is noticeably dulled. With dielectric types which have high DA, there is a definite "grundge" or hashy distortion added to the signal.
It is quite important to describe the sonic thumbprint that DA contributes to subjective audio. The effects of DF and DA can be perceived differently. DF is primarily a contributor to phase and amplitude modulation DA reduces or compresses dynamic range. This it does by not returning the energy applied all at once. With signal applied to a capacitor with DA present, the amplitude is reduced by the percent DA. When this energy does get returned (later), it is unrelated to the music and sounds like noise or "garbage" being added; the noise floor is also raised. High-frequency and/or transient signals are audibly compressed the most. Signals that look like tail pulses (a lot of transient music information is of this nature) are blunted or blurred in their sound. "Dulling," 8'loss of dynamics," "added garbage or hash," and "an inability to hear further into the music" have been subjective terms used to describe the DA effect in capacitors.

Tony.

 

[audi0]

This test will obviously reveal nothing at all. I guess you are more inclined to believe we all have ear infections

+1

 

[tubesteve]

the holy "input"caps

i think slowly, the placebo effect also now works in audio, not only in medicine. next i will employ some hifi fans into my lab, to judge the results. i will no more perform any testing. it seems, people are better and more reliable than any test equipment. since 37 years i did audio design and testing, so i was completely wrong...............

 

[johnmarkp]

Just to add my two cents here. People who assume that "since we can not measure the difference, it means there is no difference", are missing an important problem with measurement. Are you actually measuring the thing that matters. A simple example, I have two caps, that have the same uf rating but are a different physical size. They will measure different with a ruler, but they may or may not sound the same. So for this issue are we measuring all relevant parameters? If we use a VOM, probably not, an oscilloscope, maybe, if we take a frequency sweep with changes in voltage and frequency that are random like and audio signal, even then?? In the food business we have a very similar problem with taste and texture. We use trained panels of people who are taught the basic factors for taste. Then we test the product with them. It is scored and statistically analyzed for as many as ten parameters. We get surprising consistency with this method. You can find links on the net that will show you the resulting spider graphs. So for the people who say that they can not hear the difference between components, I ask them to do a real science based test and not use their ears or the wrong test method.

 

[wintermute]

you can lead a horse to water.....

i think slowly, the placebo effect also now works in audio, not only in medicine. next i will employ some hifi fans into my lab, to judge the results. i will no more perform any testing. it seems, people are better and more reliable than any test equipment. since 37 years i did audio design and testing, so i was completely wrong...............

Hi tubesteve, you won't get any argument from me on the effects of psychoacoustics, but did you even bother to have a look at the article I posted?

edit: in case you missed it, you can click on part1 and part2 for the whole article

Tony.

 

[tubesteve]

caps again

Dear Wintermute,
i am not always online, bcc. too busy..

it is written in the article: the trapped or bound electrons within the dielectric do not follow as fast. These electrons take a finite time to move from the dielectric to the electrode.... as engineer i must say: therefore we cannot use capacitors in the RF range, bcc. we will loose something of the RF signals quality. but we use capacitors successfully. if taken low inductance types etc.

but:
compared to capacitors, the behavior of active components is even worse in most cases, ( intermodulation, and for audio, some bad effects from negative feedback, etc. ). no one here in the "capacitor" forum is mentioning this.

we shall test better the components with a network analyzer, to see their behavior, lets say, displayed as smith chart. this can give a good clou about the performance.

i again want to point out again, that the output snubber filter components, here in digital amplificationare for me much more imprortant bcc. they form together with the speakers EMF a complex load, which have more effect on the sound.

 

[PaleRider]

some people may have noticed, that human senses are not reliable and stable in performance. therefore we engineers like to test with equipment. a small infection which even may not be noticed can easily affect the hearing. the dull effect some are noticing may more be due to the output filter snubber caps as the frequency response in the higher treble range falls down caused by them. this intended to protect speakers against RF power, and also for EMI reasons. but if there may have any doubt, buy new caps, put them into the amp, and sweep a signal with a known voltage thru the amp with a known output voltage, connect an oscilloskope and record the response. repeat the same after a time when you thinks the sound is dull. dont use speakers as a load, use fixed 4 or 8 ohm power resistors, then compare both records. differences of 3 dB ( = half power) can barely be noticed by most people. if the scope has an FFT mode, you can see results directly in dB

I can see why youre an engineer

FR tells nothing about sound quality or purity, only energy level.

 

[optimationman]

I will leave the measurement to others

Being and Electrical Engineer and a stereo buff for 35 years has been a real journey. I have a system with one capacitor in the CD player and one coupling capacitor in the power amp. Ok there is also some in the crossover system in the speakers(dynaudio). I have tried Holland made PIO's to MKP's bypassed with Polystyrenes in the amp, and bipolar electrolytics to Ero MKP's in the CD player. If you can't hear any change, then go back to your Bose system. I Know there is a change in the sound when you change capacitors(discounting my aging ears), so I'll leave it to the Engineers to find the way to prove it. I already have!

 

[Johnny2Bad]

...
compared to capacitors, the behavior of active components is even worse in most cases, ( intermodulation, and for audio, some bad effects from negative feedback, etc. ). no one here in the "capacitor" forum is mentioning this.
...
i again want to point out again, that the output snubber filter components, here in digital amplificationare for me much more imprortant bcc. they form together with the speakers EMF a complex load, which have more effect on the sound.

Thank you for pointing out that other components may have an effect on sound quality, and for correcting the error whereby 'no one here in the "capacitor' forum is mentioning [it].'

Well, you have. And we all thank you for it. It's been etched in our collective memories for all time, never to be forgotten.

And also thank you for reminding me that we are 'here in the "capacitor" forum". I think I'll just carry on and talk about some capacitors in the capacitors forum.

Now, about the OP's post on this particular capacitor.

This is the stock capacitor as supplied with the Arjen Tripath TA2020 amps, and a few of his other products.

It's not a 'bad' sounding cap, compared to some that are found in low cost audio. I burned in the new amps for about a month continuously. The amp settles in after about 60 hours, these caps apparently included, and if there is any improvement after that, it's slow and subtle. After 7 days the sound was consistent; I cannot say I heard any improvement in the following weeks.

I replaced these on my TA-2020 MkIII with the least expensive Mundorfs(1) in the same value. I'm burning these in now.

I don't know where the "knee" in the "capacitor burn-in curve" is with the Mundorfs, but almost as soon as they were installed (eg the first half hour) there was a noticeable improvement in detail and smoothness over the Audiophilers, even in the burned-in state.

After about 10 hours (now) there is really no area where I would prefer the Audiophilers; the Mundorfs are an improvement across the board. Most notable (you could hear it almost immediately) was an improvement in inner detail and a significant reduction in sibilance on female vocals.

The Mundorfs fit the budget for the amp project (stereo 6-channel car amp) and were a pleasant surprise.

(1)Mundorf M-Cap(R) MKP Series 2.2uF 250V; about $4 each from PartsConnexion

 

[Moddang]

Dear Wintermute,
...
compared to capacitors, the behavior of active components is even worse in most cases, ( intermodulation, and for audio, some bad effects from negative feedback, etc. ). no one here in the "capacitor" forum is mentioning this.

we shall test better the components with a network analyzer, to see their behavior, lets say, displayed as smith chart. this can give a good clou about the performance.
....

What is model of VNA the can go below than 9kHz? do you have that? I need to buy one.

What kind of the Cap and how much value?
Don't forget to discharge the Cap before test with VNA Good luck.

 

[random007]

Hi TubeSteve, I'd advise having a read of walt jungs Picking Capacitors article. Walt Jung is an engineer, and a very

{snip}
Part 1 and Part 2 of the article for your convenience

{snip}
Tony.

Cool! Really interesting. Thanks for the links!

{snip}m still sounds the same, somewhat dull. I would not recommend these caps.

Thanks for pointing this out, I was just about to buy some and thought I'd better google the name first.

 

[gil1]

A year later I still try these caps in the audio path of different preamps and they are just dull. For those that call it "the placebo effect" can they tell the difference between high end and a boom box? When one has been listening to a component for months, swap a couple of caps and the sound just degrades... It is what it is, these Audiophiler caps are inexpensive and they sound cheap.

 

[cr0wl3y]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm in Shenzhen and there are heaps of these caps in the massive SEG market sold at very attractive prices. Their "reassuring" size and name made me almost buy a bucket load for future projects, but thought I'd check in the forum first!