Zeppy, silver solder or any solder does not affect how fast the signal travels, we are not defeating your point but pointing out the reality of soldering and solder joints. And if there is one thing I have seen enought of in my life it is solder joints and here I am talking about millions not just a few.
How are you gonna re-solder all the SMD components in a computer LOL
How are you gonna re-solder all the SMD components in a computer LOL
Resoldering is far more likely to create problems than to improve things. As DF96 astutely pointed out, some of the new distortions created by poor solder rework or inappropriate choices of solder might be interpreted by the wishful as "improvements."
When I need advice about solder, I go to guys who have been doing that stuff professionally for decades.
When I need advice about solder, I go to guys who have been doing that stuff professionally for decades.
Plenty doubt actually.
Van den Huul? What has he said about solder and the content of silver?
What do you think about the transitionpoints, where the audio signal travels from the copper in the PCB, over to the tin/lead/silver in the solder, and then to the tin on the component legs, into the aluminum or copper in their legs, then to the gold wire inside most transistors? Does the signal travel in different speeds in all those materials? What happens to the signal when it goes from silver to copper? Does it for any form of queue? Traffic jam in the amp?
Lets see some technical papers who supports Your statyements please
Zeppy, old onion ... first: [read the comments above]. They're right.
Second ... there is NOTHING about "solder" that'll improve sound (except if its made from something hideously non-metallic!). The amount of solder used in joints, the gaps between conductors (that actually do the work of carrying the signals) are so small ... that even moderately high resistance solder, has only microohms of resistance per joint.
Third ... unless you're REALLY good soldering, most attempts to unsolder-and-resolder end up as ham-handed hack-jobs. I've seen hundreds of accidental cold-solder joints, I've seen crumbling solder, I've seen blobs-that-threaten-to-short out components. I've seen just about every soldering "sin" a-going, and my net-net after 40 years? DO NOT KID YOURSELF. Every solder joint you make is playing with a 100-chamber Russian Roulette gun. Just say no. Reagan said it best.
GoatGuy
Second ... there is NOTHING about "solder" that'll improve sound (except if its made from something hideously non-metallic!). The amount of solder used in joints, the gaps between conductors (that actually do the work of carrying the signals) are so small ... that even moderately high resistance solder, has only microohms of resistance per joint.
Third ... unless you're REALLY good soldering, most attempts to unsolder-and-resolder end up as ham-handed hack-jobs. I've seen hundreds of accidental cold-solder joints, I've seen crumbling solder, I've seen blobs-that-threaten-to-short out components. I've seen just about every soldering "sin" a-going, and my net-net after 40 years? DO NOT KID YOURSELF. Every solder joint you make is playing with a 100-chamber Russian Roulette gun. Just say no. Reagan said it best.
GoatGuy
If solder affects the 'speed' of signals how come ordinary solder has been used for years quite successfully up to low microwave frequencies? That is, 5 orders of magnitude higher in frequency than treble audio. Oh sorry, I forgot, the ears of an audiophile (when assisted by his eyes) are much more sensitive than the finest products from Agilent and Tektronix.
At higher frequencies silver solder may be used, but this is not because of 'speed' but resistance so that resonator Q can be maintained. Valid science for 2GHz; audiophile nonsense for 20kHz.
At higher frequencies silver solder may be used, but this is not because of 'speed' but resistance so that resonator Q can be maintained. Valid science for 2GHz; audiophile nonsense for 20kHz.
ROHS is one of the dumbest directves the EU ever created.
Fortunately, it doesn't apply to non commercial equipment, so dont care a sh-t about being lead-free.
Use Cardas Quad eutectic (with lead), and it will look good too. And afaik it costs about the same as mundorf silver solder.
Well,
This issue has restarted, so let me mention I have measured the difference in the distortion produced by solder joints using different kinds of solder.
Now most of the lead free solders used for electronics have higher melting points. So if you are not using a variable temperature iron, it will not work quite as well for you. Second issue with lead free solders is that they do not flow as well. So the fillets are sharper. This means to produce a nice looking joint you should use less solder per joint.
Then there is eutectic solder either 63/37 or some variant with other metals, these are probably the best choice as they are much less likely to produce cold solder joints.
The other big issue is clean, clean, clean. If the parts are old and oxidized they will not form good solder joints. Some parts are actually shipped with special packaging to make sure they are not degraded before installation. I have had surface mount parts fall off because the proper procedures were not followed. (They required a liquid flux.)
That brings up the issue of solid or rosin core solder. As you must use a flux rosin core is just about the universal choice. I do use solid solder in my solder pot, so parts are first dipped in liquid flux. They just won't solder properly without it.
Also very important is to keep the tip of your soldering iron clean. The flux will build up on it, slowly burn and generally make a mess.
Now if you take a piece of gear and resolder all of the joints, particularly the through plated holes with a good audiophile grade of solder, you quite likely will hear an improvement. I have measured this.
As to the distortion measurements on solders, doing a loop with hundreds of joints the best solder was to the limits of the test (-180 db or so!) the same as the worst. (After getting proper joints with all the variations.)
The reason why resoldering a piece of gear works is that the through plated holes are just not very good. So you will get the same improvement even with ordinary solder.
ES
PS SY on general principles I just have to disagree with you, so could you post something silly?
This issue has restarted, so let me mention I have measured the difference in the distortion produced by solder joints using different kinds of solder.
Now most of the lead free solders used for electronics have higher melting points. So if you are not using a variable temperature iron, it will not work quite as well for you. Second issue with lead free solders is that they do not flow as well. So the fillets are sharper. This means to produce a nice looking joint you should use less solder per joint.
Then there is eutectic solder either 63/37 or some variant with other metals, these are probably the best choice as they are much less likely to produce cold solder joints.
The other big issue is clean, clean, clean. If the parts are old and oxidized they will not form good solder joints. Some parts are actually shipped with special packaging to make sure they are not degraded before installation. I have had surface mount parts fall off because the proper procedures were not followed. (They required a liquid flux.)
That brings up the issue of solid or rosin core solder. As you must use a flux rosin core is just about the universal choice. I do use solid solder in my solder pot, so parts are first dipped in liquid flux. They just won't solder properly without it.
Also very important is to keep the tip of your soldering iron clean. The flux will build up on it, slowly burn and generally make a mess.
Now if you take a piece of gear and resolder all of the joints, particularly the through plated holes with a good audiophile grade of solder, you quite likely will hear an improvement. I have measured this.
As to the distortion measurements on solders, doing a loop with hundreds of joints the best solder was to the limits of the test (-180 db or so!) the same as the worst. (After getting proper joints with all the variations.)
The reason why resoldering a piece of gear works is that the through plated holes are just not very good. So you will get the same improvement even with ordinary solder.
ES
PS SY on general principles I just have to disagree with you, so could you post something silly?
Last edited:
NE is going to win the AFC Championship.
There, I couldn't think of anything sillier.
And here's a plug:
Got an offer I couldn't refuse from a big company that gave me some stability, so I didn't refuse. 
Surprisingly, they've treated me great. I'm doing more classical wet chemistry these days, with an emphasis on chemicals for manufacturing (metalworking, rubber, and composite industries).
Yeah, I miss the music in Austin (as well as my great musician and audio friends). A lot. Nice jazz scene here, though, and I can't complain about the food!
Surprisingly, they've treated me great. I'm doing more classical wet chemistry these days, with an emphasis on chemicals for manufacturing (metalworking, rubber, and composite industries). Yeah, I miss the music in Austin (as well as my great musician and audio friends). A lot. Nice jazz scene here, though, and I can't complain about the food!
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
There is not a single electronics component in use that has less than at least a cuple of (kinds of) metalurgical joints formed out of various materials.
Soldering is not the same as welding. Welding is usually done between two parts of material type A with material type A - and EVEN THEN strictly speaking it's not a single piece, metalurgicaly. Soldering is done between parts of meterial A and B with meterial C, although A and B may be the same in some cases. It's not the same. There are some processes that do have characteristics of both a weld and a solder joint.
Also, please avoid inventing terminology such as 'speed of conduction' without checking possible meanings and implications. If your amplifier sounds better due to the 'increased speed of conduction', why don't you then replace all resistors with pieces of silver, and get even higher speed of conduction, or is it a case where 'too high conduction speed' might leas to electrons flying put of cunductors in curved leads?
That being said, after rebuilding countless examples of vintage audio electronics, these devices CAN and indeed often do sound better after a resolder, and that's best done with the same type or at least closely compatible type of solder as originally used (there are cases where it's prudent to use different types but this would really fall under the category of 'fixing a design flaw'). This is because a number of cold joints have been fixed! Often the joint itself is incidental in the whole story - some components used lead or surface treatment that in the long run proved to be problematic, these can form cold joints that look perfect even under high magnification as it's not the actual solder joint that has the damage but the soldered surface of the component pin. Another common problem (especially with older PCBs) is the flux used, which can be displaced by the new flux used to resolder the joints (although a better idea is to carefully remove the old solder and clean the board thoroughly if one suspects a problem case, then resolder and again clean).
Correct ilimzn¨
Most vintage amps sound better after resoldering.
And this is regardless of what type solder one uses.
Actually the lead in the good old solder is the main factor making all those "dry solderjoints" we often see as tiny grey lines around the component leg.
And there is a issue, this about residues of the old flux. So Your point about carefulle cleaning the pcb for the olod solder and flux is indeed a very good one.
Solder or not to Solder, thats the question.
(At least it was in the late seventies )
Most vintage amps sound better after resoldering.
And this is regardless of what type solder one uses.
Actually the lead in the good old solder is the main factor making all those "dry solderjoints" we often see as tiny grey lines around the component leg.
And there is a issue, this about residues of the old flux. So Your point about carefulle cleaning the pcb for the olod solder and flux is indeed a very good one.
Solder or not to Solder, thats the question.
(At least it was in the late seventies )
Precisely - the solder should be a binder and not a bridge between the component pins and conductive pads - i.e. the solder actually is so thin that it's resistance is a very minor contribution - and all of this relies on the joint actually being properly established.
One reason why lead-free fails more often is mechanical, it's more brittle. This is especially a problem with SMD, as boards DO bend (thermal dilation), with through-holes the component is held mechanically in place so it will at least stay there even with a bad joint.
There are instances when solder can make a big difference and these are found either in cases of metalurgical incompatibility (aforementioned silver plated leads, surfaces, tracks MUST be soldered with silver bearing solder), thermal cycling and vibration can be an issue (weld cracking due to the character of the joint depending on joined materials - NOT to be confused with solder melting point issues!), and in rare cases where galvanic potential is a problem.
The 'non problems' like lead solder in a world where ech car still has tens of pounds of lead in each battery (the amount of solder one would make out of all that lead and amount of scrap electronics one battery equates to can be a nice 'calculate on a napkin' style exercise
), and mercury inside a CCFL when you can go to every drugstore and buy a mercury thermometer (with enough mercury for perhaps a hundred CCFLs in it...) are not truly worth discussing, except perhaps in light of reliability reports of non-lead soldered electronics. So, removing the lead hoping to impact the environment less, will produce more failed (and of course 'not economical to repair) electronics to be throuw into the same environment. Yes, that was really clever.- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.