11 year cycle
Well those arguments never go away, same responses as well.
However here's a way of easily assessing any audible differences between solders. It does require a degree of soldering skill though.
Just make up interconnects of solder, if you want to compare 2 solders make up two sets of interconnects using the solders instead of conductors, this way we're comparing a meter or whatever of solder rather than a number of joints. As I said it does require some skill.
Of course those who know it won't be audible won't bother and I for one will not waste my time, defending whatever my experience has taught me, consider this merely an alternative test method for those sufficiently curious enough, and not my personal stance for or against.
SC
Well those arguments never go away, same responses as well.
However here's a way of easily assessing any audible differences between solders. It does require a degree of soldering skill though.
Just make up interconnects of solder, if you want to compare 2 solders make up two sets of interconnects using the solders instead of conductors, this way we're comparing a meter or whatever of solder rather than a number of joints. As I said it does require some skill.
Of course those who know it won't be audible won't bother and I for one will not waste my time, defending whatever my experience has taught me, consider this merely an alternative test method for those sufficiently curious enough, and not my personal stance for or against.
SC
Very good idea.
One simpler/faster version of your test would be to mount 2 pairs of RCA connectors inside a metallic cabinet, as far as can be , say 10 inches, interconnect grounds with a piece of fat copper wire to put it out of the equation and join hot to hot with a 10 inch piece of solder wire or 10 inches of copper , selectable with a switch or even better, a remotely controlled relay.
Or use 2 pieces of solder as hot: one leaded, the other silver.
Pass audio through it alternating both materials, check whether:
is verified or not.
Simple test.
By the way, 25 inches of solder is equivalent to, say, 1000 soldered junctions in series or more, so any effect , if existent, should be blindingly obvious.
Ok, then don't try to.
In fact, before searching for an explanation, the fact must first be proven to exist.
I do not troll, so calling me that was what I was unhappy with. I try to keep the discussion technical where possible, and was requesting something in support of your statement that cables sound different. If it's just your opinion, no problem.
Extending the "cables sound different" to solder was just downright incorrect. The flux won't activate the surface, so the solder balls up and rolls off. the metal just sits back, looks at me and says "really, that's all you got?"
I've used all of them and quite a few more alloys as well. The indium alloys have the problem of flux activation temperature. The lower you go, the more aggressive the flux has to be to clean the oxides. Also, there is a copper-indium alloy that is less dense, creates kirkendall voiding.
And yet, even after 2000 years, somebody blows up 150 million dollars worth of equipment all because of one solder joint.
I'm confused. Tin silver doesn't have a shiny surface finish like eutectic tin/lead. It's a wee bit frosty in appearance. I had to re-teach all the techs and the QA people because of that visual difference.
jn
I have over a kilo of SavBit Type 1 Multicore on a reel I was gifted over 20 years ago, It still has a shiny surface and works just as well as the brand-new stuff at work.
Every now and then I pull off a metre or so, fatigue break it, and coil it round my fingers.
Perhaps your storage conditions leave something to be desired.
It was started when I got it, about 2Kg5 remaining, you can see why it's taken me over 20 years to get this far.
This is just to say don't be discouraged from picking up a bargain at a yard sale if it looks OK. You can do a quick test by wrapping a bit of solder round a scrap of copper wire with the metal exposed and heating indirectly with a lighter. Don't buy any plumber's solder or flux tho' ...except where the alloy + purity is stated if you're thinking of using a solder pot and brass roller to tin your home etchings, and even then, use an electronics flux. Don't overheat the roller, if you've ever overheated a bullet mould, you'll know what I mean.
I keep a bit of solder tape in my wallet. You take a bit of solder and roll it flat with a glass bottle or rolling pin. Twist the wires, wrap with tape, apply a flame. Survivotech.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is just to say don't be discouraged from picking up a bargain at a yard sale if it looks OK. You can do a quick test by wrapping a bit of solder round a scrap of copper wire with the metal exposed and heating indirectly with a lighter. Don't buy any plumber's solder or flux tho'
...except where the alloy + purity is stated if you're thinking of using a solder pot and brass roller to tin your home etchings, and even then, use an electronics flux. Don't overheat the roller, if you've ever overheated a bullet mould, you'll know what I mean.I keep a bit of solder tape in my wallet. You take a bit of solder and roll it flat with a glass bottle or rolling pin. Twist the wires, wrap with tape, apply a flame. Survivotech.
or very much more.
Since soldered joint have wire to wire/terminal contact, the length of solder between the touching wire/terminal is effectively zero mil/thou/0.00mm
The number of joints is therefore approaching infinity. Let's settle for an estimate of one million as equivalent to 25"/635mm of solid core solder.
Yes, a bad joint or one prone to failure is always a possibility...but here we are talking about the different formula's of solder having an audible (and thus measurable effect on the sound, and 4% silver (again) lead free solder sounding clearer!) During the transition to lead free and even now tests are carried out on assemblies soldered with different types of solder, bad joints aside, I have never heard of solder affecting the signal, maybe at the mad levels you go to.
One thing I have been thinking about is the tolerance of components and the magnitude of change that would have in comparison to the type of solder used! I would suspect that this would have a far greater effect than solder types?
Here you are Andrew, you can work it out...Its Sunday morning and my head is not capable of any hard work, and if I was at work I would use a 3d model of an assembly (we actually calculate the exact weight of some assemblies in 3D for satellites, and funnily enough for data trackers/cameras to go on wildlife).
http://www.te.com/documentation/whi...Through-Hole_Reflow-Compatible_Connectors.pdf
If you reference it to a standard PTH IC pin in a finished 0.8/0.9mm hole, 1.6mm, an standard IC leg is a cuboid 0.5mm x 0.25mm x 1.6mm; the top fillet can be ignored (solder flat with the top of a PTH hole is acceptable) or add 50% of bottom fillet which can be calculated simply as a cone r 0.45mm h 0.75mm. A rough figure is 0.7-0.9mm3 per joint.
When the wire to wire is a mechanical connection the copper is touching.
Solder around that "touch" point keeps the air and water out.
The solder is not the electrical connection, the "touch" area is the electrical connection.
We are told repeatedly, that one should make a mechanical connection first and THEN solder the joint.
You can add 0.7cub.mm around the mechanical joint if you want, or just 0.07cub.mm and the resistance across the wire to wire joint is substantially unchanged. Further due to the "airtight" quality it remains so for many years/decades/centuries.
Solder around that "touch" point keeps the air and water out.
The solder is not the electrical connection, the "touch" area is the electrical connection.
We are told repeatedly, that one should make a mechanical connection first and THEN solder the joint.
You can add 0.7cub.mm around the mechanical joint if you want, or just 0.07cub.mm and the resistance across the wire to wire joint is substantially unchanged. Further due to the "airtight" quality it remains so for many years/decades/centuries.
By the way that is from a NASA standard
Hmm- and as we know by now, the Apollo missions to the moon was just a fake produced for some obscure reason - all pictures shot in some studio or desert.....
so how can we trust NASA spec's.....??Jees - the madness never ends.....
BTW - the Apollos used wire wrap quite extensively........
Awesome
I now prefer lead free solder wherever water washing makes sense,
simply because its mechanically stronger. +Silver even stronger yet.
The only flux that works well is conductive, corrosive, water soluble.
Has to be very thoroughly drowned clean and very thoroughly dried.
If you are working on an old stereo, the required water washing is
just not practical for too many reasons to list.
I prefer leaded solder wherever washing with water is impossible.
Unfortunately the only no-clean flux I would ever willingly use is
rosin. And even then I would prefer to spot clean with a Q-tip or
whatever. Unfortunately rosin just doesn't cut the mustard at the
higher temperatures required for lead free work. Or maybe it just
burns up too fast to give sufficient working time for larger joints...
I would get leaded with silver and rosin if I weren't pinching pennies.
the silver will give strength to the lead, yet still melts at a temp were
rosin is effective.
Melting point, mechanical strength, and flux residue are differences.
There is no difference in the conductivity of properly soldered joints.
Some of those crappy no-clean fluxes leave a plastic residue that has
dielectric properties and can change the capacitance between pins of
an IC. That sort of parasitic capacitance could plausibly be heard, and
even plausibly make something sound "better". Though I would expect
the odds favor any random added capacitance sounding worse.
simply because its mechanically stronger. +Silver even stronger yet.
The only flux that works well is conductive, corrosive, water soluble.
Has to be very thoroughly drowned clean and very thoroughly dried.
If you are working on an old stereo, the required water washing is
just not practical for too many reasons to list.
I prefer leaded solder wherever washing with water is impossible.
Unfortunately the only no-clean flux I would ever willingly use is
rosin. And even then I would prefer to spot clean with a Q-tip or
whatever. Unfortunately rosin just doesn't cut the mustard at the
higher temperatures required for lead free work. Or maybe it just
burns up too fast to give sufficient working time for larger joints...
I would get leaded with silver and rosin if I weren't pinching pennies.
the silver will give strength to the lead, yet still melts at a temp were
rosin is effective.
Melting point, mechanical strength, and flux residue are differences.
There is no difference in the conductivity of properly soldered joints.
Some of those crappy no-clean fluxes leave a plastic residue that has
dielectric properties and can change the capacitance between pins of
an IC. That sort of parasitic capacitance could plausibly be heard, and
even plausibly make something sound "better". Though I would expect
the odds favor any random added capacitance sounding worse.
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It may very well be, I cannot discount that possibility. Given the vendor, there is a possibility that the product was bad from the get-go. It took a while for me to learn that the specific vendor was inclined to purchase material rejected from other customers for QA reasons.
I have found that even plumber's solder can go bad, and again, I'm not sure why. The basement is constantly at 50% RH max, and at a constant 65 F, so having a tin of plumbers flux stop working was quite puzzling.
No, not even at the levels I work with.
In a well designed circuit, it shouldn't. Sometimes however, the design is insufficient for tolerance issues, and parts need selection. My big concern with the OP was the fact that the higher temperature and longer dwell needed for lead free might have altered the component parameters a tad. A tight circuit could possibly be affected at the level one could hear.
Another thought was, is it possible that the build physical design was responsible? Perhaps one build is more susceptible to ground loop currents or stray EMF? Without far more details from the OP, that would be guesses on my part.
jn
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