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Old 16th March 2007, 09:25 PM   #11
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Default Home Theater design

I think Rives Audio can design your room to your specifications.
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Old 16th March 2007, 09:54 PM   #12
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Default home theater

Don't build a square box room

try for some curved walls, and odd dimensions..

also place as many subwoofers as you can around the room, this will help with standing waves..

No surround??? are u nuts??????????????

If it's a home theater, surround sound is a MUST... if you don't like the back speakers.. turn 'em off...

I'd go with planar dipole line source in front l/r smaller diploles in rear/sides.. spend spend spend!!! you won't regret it!!

good luck...

too many subs for ht is impossible...

also.. think about some form of "double wall" construction... helps to build lf absorbers between the walls in the right locations...

John L.
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Old 17th March 2007, 02:47 AM   #13
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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wow!!!

you guys are all nuts!

but i like what i read

Ok so you are saying that HORNS won't be simple enough and will require alot of space?
( wich is what i will be missing shortly if we don't stop adding rooms to the house plan )

I could only stick to the original plan and use 3 to 4 18" on each side ..i can get custom 18" to my specs from local Belisle Audio company ...should be pretty cheap for the quality ( they mostly do PA stuff ..high quality ones though ..just a tad short of Mc Cauley, but alot cheaper )

Then, to go OB or not to go ..
i'd say, using some kind of TL design
i could use 2-3 18" and use their backwaves to add to the front one with some simple design ???
would that be of a benefit ?
( something like a front firing woofer with the back horned and timed for a specific Hz boost ?? )

I love OB/dipole, you say that you are getting alot of efficiency at low Hz from 1 15" ?

i could do the rear horned subs and go dipole array for mids ... i've done a few OB widerange projects and have always been astonished by the quality ( should i say quantity !? ) of the mids from those systems ..



And about surround ..
has one of you ever listened to binaural recordings with headphones ?
then compared the feeling to "surround sound systems"???

i seriously dislike what most surround systems and recordings do, + i firmly believe that it is a lost of time to try and get a feeling of beeing surrounded by sound
when you are in a closed room where there are millions of unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...
then there is always a trade off in quality because no one with a normal life, has a budget high enough to be able to afford full set of drivers all around driven by the same components with perfect aligmenet and timing

we still are having hard time getting perfect sound out of a simple stereo 2-3 way system, how can one manage to get equally good sound out of a 5-7.1 system? sorry but i have been only not impressed by all the surround sound setups i have heard

Stereo is far from perfect or from binaural,
but it can be control way better, and doesn't introduce mixed up information from behind
my walls create reflections i need to feel at the correct spot

my 2 cents on surround



so up to now,
alot of 18inchers in a TL like enclosure
alot of mids in dipole OB
tweets to match mids

is that a good idea?
it seems simple enough for sure
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Old 17th March 2007, 04:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
I love OB/dipole, you say that you are getting alot of efficiency at low Hz from 1 15" ?
Sorry if I misled you, no I am getting more than I need, not a lot. I don't remember exactly but its around 105dB in the 30 Hz range, but I never listen to it that loud. Being that it is a dipole it is excursion limited, if I were to put it into a box/IB then I could get at least that at 20 Hz. IB and dipole are excursion limited, rarely is the thermal power limit reached.

Quote:
Then, to go OB or not to go
No! this will kill your low end, use an infinite baffles.(maybe that's what you meant)

Quote:
when you are in a closed room where there are millions of unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...then there is always a trade off in quality because no one with a normal life, has a budget high enough to be able to afford full set of drivers all around driven by the same components with perfect aligmenet and timing

we still are having hard time getting perfect sound out of a simple stereo 2-3 way system, how can one manage to get equally good sound out of a 5-7.1 system? sorry but i have been only not impressed by all the surround sound setups i have heard
I'll mention it again, you have not heard a good surround system....

unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...
If you set up a room and system wrong then it does not matter if it is stereo or 100.1 surround it wont image properly.
You are building the room, you have the option of dealing with reflections, you are one of the few who can control the room design and all acoustic parameters.
I have personally taken one of my systems that had bad imaging in surround mode and made it not as bad (I have a really bad layout in my place).
In addition I helped set my parents up with surround sound, they bought really crappy speakers and they have awesome surround sound immersion.

THE ROOM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PARAMETER
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Old 17th March 2007, 02:01 PM   #15
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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i will probably have a chance toglimpse some
good to ok surround systems at this next
"festival son et image" in montreal next month

i still am convinced that there is no way to control all the parameters of surround system enough for it to be acceptable ..

have you read papers on how the recordings are done ?
i have still to read one ...could explain alot of things
on what to expectfrom it ..

we have a 4.1 system at my parent's
with all around Mirage recent OM loudspeakers
( my prior system +new om surrounds )

the amplifier is a barely ok Sony ES class D model
but the sound is acceptable nonetheless

but i like the surround effect that it gives
ok the room isn't built for that, lot of defficiencies on eevery side, but still it's pretty open and one would think that it woul result in good direct waves without too much interference
but it stilldoesn't impress at all







Ok the let's start over for the surround

What would be the ideal erquirements for a perfect surround system ??????
( 4.1 is enough or ? )

room requirements ..??
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Old 17th March 2007, 03:06 PM   #16
GM is offline GM  United States
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Greets!

I'm coming a little late to the 'party', but in a 'nutshell', the room dominates and you need as many channels (and speakers/channel) as required for the space to overload our internal processor (brain) into summing all the info it's being bombarded with. Anyway, spend the next week or three reading all the various Dolby papers, manuals, etc. if you're really serious about building a state-of-the-art mixing stage since that's what you ideally need to experience what the producer envisioned: http://www.dolby.com/resources/tech_library/index.cfm

GM
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Old 17th March 2007, 03:31 PM   #17
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5:0 Clone 4 Dunlavy VI flush into the walls. Exceptional stereo and multi-channel reproduction. No sub required. Use Coaxial 12" for center channel under the panel for pinpoint voice


WMTMW topology has exceptional vertical and horizontal dispersion, especially when you follow Dunlavy's philosophies of time alignment and 1st order crossovers. Building into the wall, flush with the drywall, hides the size and removes baffle step affects.
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Old 17th March 2007, 07:51 PM   #18
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i still am convinced that there is no way to control all the parameters of surround system enough for it to be acceptable ..
I think I see the problem. You are looking at it from the other direction, you are thinking that the setup becomes more crucial with more speakers. Instead, try looking at it as the addition of additional speakers adds more direct sources requiring less perfect alignment of the front two. The idea being that in a large enough room the direct sound from the 5 or 7 speakers overrides the decayed, dispersed and reflected sound. The owners job is to make sure that happens in their respective room, if the room is very large like theaters then many more speakers are added due to the large listening position differences and the relatively weak reflections.

Imagine how perfect the room would have to be if you tried to get surround sound with only two speakers, how hard would it be to get the reflection off of the rear wall to appear to be a rear sound source?
Now pretend there are two speakers back there, to simulate a rear source all you need to do is hook it into a 5.1 amp. The same principals apply for surround imaging as stereo: if the front of the room is symmetrical and properly setup, then equal signals sent to the left and right channels will be summed by the brain and the perception will be a central source. This should be the same for the rears, if you plug the rears into the mains channel and send to equal signals to each, it should appear to come from directly behind you.
Same for the sides, if you plug the two left channels into the mains and give them equal signal the sound should be directly to your left.

You are right about the addition of sources creating more reflections, however you are building the room so you get to control the damping and reflectivity.
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Old 17th March 2007, 09:07 PM   #19
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Not to critisize your personal taste or anything, but this IS home theater room you are building. No movie watching experience is complete without at least 5.1 surround. Trust me you be severely lacking if you don't have surround sound.
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Old 17th March 2007, 09:31 PM   #20
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by nunayafb
You are right about the addition of sources creating more reflections, however you are building the room so you get to control the damping and reflectivity.
Greets!

Not to mention that done right requires speakers with good directivity control/~flat power response over a wide BW to reduce room/audience interaction.

GM
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