Can anyone possibly help me with this? I have tried designing one myself but I can't get something that works well...I want to possibly reach 110+ db (even higher would be great) at around 30hz with the 8 hehe...Power is not an issue, I will buy the amplifier relative to the design...Output down to 20 or even 25 hz in room is what I am shooting for...
Fast1one said:
the air column is a horn which doesn't have a rear chamber to anull (or push up resonance) effectively lowers system resonance so Fs for tapped horn might be picked `1/2 octave higher than cutoff so a 30Hz tapped horn can use a 45-50hz Fs driver. An 8" driver like the one you propose will probably work better in a front loaded horn kinda like the Table Tuba which has a rear chamber and FLh might have a benefit of less excursion below the passband which could be handy if one were using LPs
Freddi, here's the sketch.
I've spent a few hours trying different combinations of the mouth/throat/length. This is the best I could come up with considering my goal to cross it with my Unity at 300Hz. If I am not happy with it, I might try a Karlson mouth see if it gets rid of the spikes from 100-300Hz.
I wanted to find out how much SPL I can get at 4.8mm Xmax. It will take 18V, flat to 30 Hz.
1/8 space = 122dB
1/2 space = 112dB
Your Definimax, with higher xmax should do a little better.
I've spent a few hours trying different combinations of the mouth/throat/length. This is the best I could come up with considering my goal to cross it with my Unity at 300Hz. If I am not happy with it, I might try a Karlson mouth see if it gets rid of the spikes from 100-300Hz.
I wanted to find out how much SPL I can get at 4.8mm Xmax. It will take 18V, flat to 30 Hz.
1/8 space = 122dB
1/2 space = 112dB
Your Definimax, with higher xmax should do a little better.
Attachments
Damn I love these tapped horns!
I have a question. Maybe I moddled it wrong, but Akabak says I shold have about 24mm excursion at 75V at 30Hz(IIRC, but its around there), I have much much less. Like 5mm peak TOPS!! And it is loud as hell! At normal listening levels(cough 2V cough) there is no visual cone movement, actually even at full volume its barely visible!
Why is this? Is it normal to have such little excursion? It seems like such a waste to have 22mm xmax and use only 5 lol. But its crazy efficient
.
Hehe I want to try this with a PA sub with 6mm xmax
I have a question. Maybe I moddled it wrong, but Akabak says I shold have about 24mm excursion at 75V at 30Hz(IIRC, but its around there), I have much much less. Like 5mm peak TOPS!! And it is loud as hell! At normal listening levels(cough 2V cough) there is no visual cone movement, actually even at full volume its barely visible!
Why is this? Is it normal to have such little excursion? It seems like such a waste to have 22mm xmax and use only 5 lol. But its crazy efficient
.Hehe I want to try this with a PA sub with 6mm xmax
G'day judtoff
I've experienced the same thing. Perhaps it's a combination of the house moving out of phase with the driver and my blurry vision that's canceling out the cone movement! 
I've poured a kilowatt into my Peerless XLS based subs and haven't gone close to x-max above cutoff. Perhaps a sinewave at x-max would work out the suspension a little more, but the voicecoil will burn before you see too much movement. A Tapped Horn is a poor box to break in the suspension of a bass driver!
It is fascinating watching the driver move and feeling the air at the mouth. The two just don't seem to be linked in any way. Here's this huge slug of air being moved inches each way and the cone is almost stationary.
Cheers and Merry Xmax!
William Cowan
I've experienced the same thing. Perhaps it's a combination of the house moving out of phase with the driver and my blurry vision that's canceling out the cone movement!
I've poured a kilowatt into my Peerless XLS based subs and haven't gone close to x-max above cutoff. Perhaps a sinewave at x-max would work out the suspension a little more, but the voicecoil will burn before you see too much movement. A Tapped Horn is a poor box to break in the suspension of a bass driver!
It is fascinating watching the driver move and feeling the air at the mouth. The two just don't seem to be linked in any way. Here's this huge slug of air being moved inches each way and the cone is almost stationary.
Cheers and Merry Xmax!
William Cowan
William...
your explaination of watching a TAP driver move or more correctly how little it moves Vs the huge amount of air motion is very similar to the Karlson effect. I have watched a 15 inch driver in a K15 Karlson playing so loud you could not talk to the person next to you and the peak cone motion was maybe a 1/4 inch pp but what was really freaky is the visceral impact that you feel on your body. You wonder if it will leave bruses. The impact seems totally disconnected with the volume displacement of the cone. In fact most of the time you can hardly see the cone move at all it just seems to be moving on the big transient peaks while the rest of the time the cone just seems to sit there doing nothing. It is a truly strange experience.
your explaination of watching a TAP driver move or more correctly how little it moves Vs the huge amount of air motion is very similar to the Karlson effect. I have watched a 15 inch driver in a K15 Karlson playing so loud you could not talk to the person next to you and the peak cone motion was maybe a 1/4 inch pp but what was really freaky is the visceral impact that you feel on your body. You wonder if it will leave bruses. The impact seems totally disconnected with the volume displacement of the cone. In fact most of the time you can hardly see the cone move at all it just seems to be moving on the big transient peaks while the rest of the time the cone just seems to sit there doing nothing. It is a truly strange experience.
Karlson seem to do that too that too but not sure if they can be (conventionally) to play very low. a question to tapped horn sub users - when mated well to the upper speakers do they sound natural without one-note droning on good recordings of bowed bass viola? I got my 1st chest pains after working up close to a k18 :^) - Karlson are for the most hip folk
Freddy, they're outside dimensions, using 1/2 material. Front and top are 7" internal. Can't wait to get done and fire this up!
Moray, see post 771 (previous page) I have a Magnum12HO, similar specs as Definimax. How's your Unity? You dropped by my house, must have been at least, two years ago.
Jeff
Moray, see post 771 (previous page) I have a Magnum12HO, similar specs as Definimax. How's your Unity? You dropped by my house, must have been at least, two years ago.
Jeff
JJS and Freddy...
more than a couple of years that's for sure. Yes it dawned on me to look back and have a look at your past posts. My unity horns are still awaiting drivers sad to say. I think that you had better factor in for thicker ply as 1/2 inch regardless of internal bracing will not be thick enough to resist the power of a 12 inch TAP and will flap like crazy.
Freddy sorry no I dont have any standard Karlson style designs to offer. All the ones aside fro my first K15's have been K-Line style. William's XLS Peerless seems a lot smoother than this partcular Eminence design. That in itself is not such an issue if you use an electronic xover but the available band seems somewhat limited but again that will depend upon your application. As a true sub all you really care about is getting to 60-80 Hz or so and everything should be fine.
more than a couple of years that's for sure. Yes it dawned on me to look back and have a look at your past posts. My unity horns are still awaiting drivers sad to say. I think that you had better factor in for thicker ply as 1/2 inch regardless of internal bracing will not be thick enough to resist the power of a 12 inch TAP and will flap like crazy.
Freddy sorry no I dont have any standard Karlson style designs to offer. All the ones aside fro my first K15's have been K-Line style. William's XLS Peerless seems a lot smoother than this partcular Eminence design. That in itself is not such an issue if you use an electronic xover but the available band seems somewhat limited but again that will depend upon your application. As a true sub all you really care about is getting to 60-80 Hz or so and everything should be fine.
Hi Moray, I can't find that driver in US and don't know which available 12" might be more appropriate than 4012HO in a tapped horn of this size. Re:-K - do you think the mini-Ks' front chamber could adapt to standard coupled-cavity situation? I believe
Kloss had a one-pass fold or exit on his 126EK. Have you ever tried a tweeter coupler?
- have you laid out the guitar K yet? Freddy
ps Moray - I think you and me get laughs when we mention K over at Speakerplans - a K12 with pym1298 has a lot of kick for a tiny box
Kloss had a one-pass fold or exit on his 126EK. Have you ever tried a tweeter coupler?
- have you laid out the guitar K yet? Freddy
ps Moray - I think you and me get laughs when we mention K over at Speakerplans - a K12 with pym1298 has a lot of kick for a tiny box
Hey Freddy...
didn't Dennis (djk) design a number TAP's bassed upon Eminence drivers some time back? Might be worth looking into. I would imagine that you will be pleased with what you have if you build it up. If you want to spend the time you can always do some searching to find a driver with close to the same T/S values as those recommended by William.
I guess William will not really have an idea about the Karlson till he hears some. It's not the amount of air that they move that is so impressive to me it is the sheer physical impact that that air has. Like I said I was wonering if I would get bruised. Everybody that I have ever asked regarding a model of the karlson has said that it was going to br just too much like work and did not have enough personal interest to make it worth the effort. We need a brave program model kind of guy with spare time.
Freddy I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "standard coupled-cavity situation" can you explain. I have not built the 12 inch guitar coupler yet perhaps in January.
didn't Dennis (djk) design a number TAP's bassed upon Eminence drivers some time back? Might be worth looking into. I would imagine that you will be pleased with what you have if you build it up. If you want to spend the time you can always do some searching to find a driver with close to the same T/S values as those recommended by William.
I guess William will not really have an idea about the Karlson till he hears some. It's not the amount of air that they move that is so impressive to me it is the sheer physical impact that that air has. Like I said I was wonering if I would get bruised. Everybody that I have ever asked regarding a model of the karlson has said that it was going to br just too much like work and did not have enough personal interest to make it worth the effort. We need a brave program model kind of guy with spare time.
Freddy I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "standard coupled-cavity situation" can you explain. I have not built the 12 inch guitar coupler yet perhaps in January.
I'm too dizzy to run a saw or walk-- anything large cut long distance couldn't be shipped economically even as flats, and my rooms are too small/cluttered to hold much more stuff - especially anything with width, Unity on K15 should do a nice impression of drumkit (I tried one passively xovered on a tall 18K) - by "standard' I just mean a hole in the wall vent (possibly bounded by the rear lowpass choke as in K15 and John's original 1955 K12. Weak motor speakers can't get the transient "snap". Have you run horn or direct radiator midrange on top of K12? My coax woofer goes high but pym1298 might be a bit shy of reaching a 1" ID x 5.3" slotted wavegudie - still fun if the coupler gets 200W peaks on the drum :^)
in a way theres too much faith put into models - speakers can make good enough graphs but sound horrible. New Karlson type should be built with a test box and several wing flares and gaps - vent position etc could matter with regards to tone. - the first few inches of wings flare or gap can make or break the results yet not show on RTA. I would use a BP as rough guesstimate of where it may ramp up and I think for vented coupler that will be in the area of the 3rd impedance peak. Did John Karlson optimize K15 for 604B? Freddy
in a way theres too much faith put into models - speakers can make good enough graphs but sound horrible. New Karlson type should be built with a test box and several wing flares and gaps - vent position etc could matter with regards to tone. - the first few inches of wings flare or gap can make or break the results yet not show on RTA. I would use a BP as rough guesstimate of where it may ramp up and I think for vented coupler that will be in the area of the 3rd impedance peak. Did John Karlson optimize K15 for 604B? Freddy
G'day again Freddi
The Karlson is way off topic on a Tapped Horn thread. Why don't you start a new Karlson thread the way Paul started this thread? It might be a great way to spark up some interest on this old design.
Moray, a speaker that has great slam is usually very strong between 60 and 80Hz. I don't doubt a Karlson can be strong in this region. The tapped horns are strong down to their cut off, this is what impresses me.
Cheers
William Cowan
The Karlson is way off topic on a Tapped Horn thread. Why don't you start a new Karlson thread the way Paul started this thread? It might be a great way to spark up some interest on this old design.
Moray, a speaker that has great slam is usually very strong between 60 and 80Hz. I don't doubt a Karlson can be strong in this region. The tapped horns are strong down to their cut off, this is what impresses me.
Cheers
William Cowan
Re: Hey Freddy...
If someone has already designed a Tapped Horn using the LAB12 drivers from Eminence, I would be happy to have a look at it. I have 2 of these drivers for quite a long time with the idea of building the Lab Subs. Now I am more inclined to building the 12Pi from Wayne Parham.
I was going to start work this evening on building Tuba36 using an internal width of 30" and utilising Definimax 4015LF drivers. Again if there are Tapped designs for these drivers I would be happy to build them instead of Tuba36.
My requirement is for ProAudio and long term reliability at high SPLs, with F3 of 35Hz would be great.
Thanks everyone,
moray james said:
If someone has already designed a Tapped Horn using the LAB12 drivers from Eminence, I would be happy to have a look at it. I have 2 of these drivers for quite a long time with the idea of building the Lab Subs. Now I am more inclined to building the 12Pi from Wayne Parham.
I was going to start work this evening on building Tuba36 using an internal width of 30" and utilising Definimax 4015LF drivers. Again if there are Tapped designs for these drivers I would be happy to build them instead of Tuba36.
My requirement is for ProAudio and long term reliability at high SPLs, with F3 of 35Hz would be great.
Thanks everyone,
