Sub gurus, please tell me... (super-sub enclosure) - diyAudio
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Old 21st January 2007, 04:12 PM   #1
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Question Sub gurus, please tell me... (super-sub enclosure)

First off, here is my goal;

Soon I will be purchasing a home theater system, which I have researched, and found to be one of the "best bangs for the buck" as far as HTiB setups go... The Onkyo 790. (Only $400 from Circuit City .com
It actually comes with a nice little 12" powered sub that "Onkyo says" puts out 230wts. I haven't heard it yet, but several have said I will be plesantly surprised. Hmmm. Okay.

But what I really want to do, is to build a "super-sub" enclosure, to use along with the rest of my HT, including the 12" sub (which will then be allowed to work a little more as a mid-base driver).
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So anyway, "I thought" I had my mind made up on a couple of things..... like a pair of Dayton Titanic 15"s.... but I come here to find a few guys saying they aren't all that. Okay fine. Then tell me about another speaker which will blow it away with very deep bass from say 40Hz down to 16Hz..... Oh, and since I'm a poor man, I need to stay below $200 each. (I can get the 15" Titanics on E-bay for $150)

Next, I thought I would buy a Crown Amp in the 750 to 800wt per channel into 4ohm range..... But then a few guys say that "even the big pro amps" have a hard time with bass power in the 16Hz to 25Hz range. Okay, then which amp ? Again, since I'm a poor guy, I was looking at a Crown amp like I mentioned, for about $400 on E-bay.

Finally, I have heard a few guys say, "Don't even consider a flat response" without using an EQ...... Geeez, that's a whole other device that I hadn't even planned on buying..... But remember, I only want my super-sub enclosure to cover a very narrow range, from say 40Hz to 16Hz anyway.
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Okay, with all this said, I'm pretty good at building enclosures, and I can make one as big as it needs to be. Cubic yards are not a problem :-) But I do like building tuned port enclosures.

Suggestions from the sub gurus on speakers, amps, and enclosures please.

Thank you very much,
Fish Chris

PS, My biggest concern (aside from not getting enough earth shaking, super-low frequency bass) is bottoming out my speakers... regardless of which ones I end up going with......
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Old 21st January 2007, 05:15 PM   #2
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Default Or......

In case my post seems to complicated to answer easily....

"How can I get the most deep bass, from 16Hz to 40Hz for $800 or less" ???

Thanks again,
Fish
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Old 21st January 2007, 05:44 PM   #3
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The best place to start is to do a search on this fourm for subwoofers. You'll find many discussions on how to make you selection.
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Old 21st January 2007, 06:32 PM   #4
DavidH is offline DavidH  Canada
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Hi, Fish.

I wouldn't necessarily let one or two opinions dissuade you. Most people that I have read or spoken to seem to feel that the Dayton Titanics are very good value for the price.

In 2005, both Adire and Ascendant announced new product lines, including some 15 inchers in my price range. Over a year later, neither company has produced, and I suspect they have changed their plans. I am getting fed up with waiting, so I'll probably get a pair of the 15" Titanics soon, for about the same price. It will be more work to build two boxes, but I might actually end up with better bass with two subs instead of one.

/D
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Old 21st January 2007, 11:54 PM   #5
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Since you've stated that large is not a problem, I'd definitely look through the Home Theater Shack article on LLT (Large Low Tuned) subs available here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...explained.html

I would consider myself to have a sub that verges on being a LLT. I own an Ascendant Audio Assassin 12" in a ~6.5 ft^3 enclosure tuned to ~15 Hz. I'm only a high schooler, and I bought the driver at the introductory price of $75, a 350W plate amp from mcminone for another $50, and finally a used BFD 1124P on ebay for another $60. While it is not the ultimate sub, it definitely holds its own for the price payed. If I were you, I'd look for a the driver you want, that is compatible with a LLT type of enclosure and spend the most money there. Then start with an amp that has reasonable power for what you need. If that's not enough, you can always sell the amp or keep it for another project and upgrade to something larger. After listening to your sub for a while, decide whether or not you need an EQ. I used my sub for a good six months, trying out different positions in my room before I bit the bullet and bought my BFD (very small concrete basement bedroom provides for a very peaky bass response in the 40-50 Hz region). If you decide you need the EQ, look for a good deal on used units on Ebay. Some have noted that Behringer products have more noise than higher priced equipment, but I have yet to notice any noise emanating from my sub.

Also, since you've mentioned building multiple sub enclosures, careful positioning of the separate subs can reduce room modes a lot which may make it unnecessary to acquire an EQ.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest using just the sub you build and forgetting about the 12" that comes with the HTIB. It creates just another problem for crossing over smoothly, and it probably will produce more noise than anything.
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Old 22nd January 2007, 03:14 PM   #6
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Default Thank you guys....

I have started looking into LLT enclosures now..... and even what I'm seeing called 'large' seems pretty modest to me. Heck, I think by building an enclosure 'tall' I could easily make it 1000 liters, or even larger if it would help, and still not take up much floor space.

But anyway, to be quite honest, I sure would like to find a guru on here somewhere using a couple 15"s for a similar purpose to my own, of which I could play "follow the leader" with (with his design parameters).... and you guys gotta' know this is SO unlike me.... Oh well. I might be lurking for a while :-)

Thanks again,
Fish
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Old 22nd January 2007, 03:41 PM   #7
pjanda1 is offline pjanda1  United States
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Fish,

If you can live with that sort of size, I'd look into enormous transmission lines or even back loaded horns. GM is probably the man to ask about such things. I have BLH/TL mains (known as the BIB's), and they are about 250 liters each.

I would caution that you be sure you can lift and move whatever you decide to build. Mine are very light for their size (under 150lbs). Given the combination of size and weight, and the fact that we move frequently (students/early in our careers), they are about the max I'd want to handle.

Also, price the wood. With such large panels, I would strongly suggest high grade ply (Marine or Baltic Birch, for ridgidity and weight savings, hf resonances won't matter much in a sub) The absolute cheapest passable stuff I could find set me back $250. Figure out how much it will take to build a 1000 litre cab (properly braced), and you may be singing a different tune.

This is not to disuade you; I think everyone should build the largest sub they can stand. Again, hopefully GM will chime in, but here are some ideas:

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html

http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm

There might be something in here:

BBBIB Bigger Badder BIB Speaker

I'd wonder about a two fold BIB, with a low Fs 15" and a longer path than anything we've disussed. One driver should do fine, and it wouldn't need a large amp. Save the rest of your $$ for ply and a digital EQ to deal with the room.


pj
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Old 22nd January 2007, 05:38 PM   #8
bjorno is offline bjorno  Sweden
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Hi Fish Chris,

Quote:
Then tell me about another speaker which will blow it away with very deep bass from say 40Hz down to 16Hz..... Oh, and since I'm a poor man, I need to stay below $200 each.
The LLT type of enclosure is a good choice for a sub and so is the DBR that I find easier to extend even further lower, especially if only the infra octaves and the lowest modal octave up to 40 Hz is the main target.

Mach5 Audio sells an 18” /8Ohm driver (the 4 Ohm version is out of stock) that modeled in a DBR with size H x W x D: 165 x 45 x 50 cm^3 = 371 Liters or 13.1 cubic feet.

The output port is a duct and critical standing waves is avoided at 344/1.6 x 8 = 27 Hz by stuffing.

This speaker should be crossed over at no more than 40 Hz and if higher the duct must be braced.

This driver is very competitive priced at $71.31 and the MJ-18 8 Ohm can be purchased at http://www.mach5audio.com

The speaker extends from 40 Hz (108 dB SPL/max 175W at X-max) with a smooth 12 dB slope down to about 8 Hz (96 dB SPL/max 175W at X-max) and in an ordinary room when placed against a wall especially close to corner, typical room gain will even flatten the FR curve to below 8 Hz.

When placed at a wall but not close to a corner see Plotted SPL Response for the System or Plotted Corrected SPL Response for the System where ‘room gain’ = + 6 dB is used.
See the pictures.

b

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Old 22nd January 2007, 05:41 PM   #9
bjorno is offline bjorno  Sweden
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Old 22nd January 2007, 05:43 PM   #10
bjorno is offline bjorno  Sweden
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