Only a 4x4 metre room? Geez, I reckon any of those 12" subwoofers will do the trick*.
It seems that you are hell bent on getting maximum SPL, and in this respect bigger drivers and longer excursions will always beat the smaller driver with smaller xmax, particularly as you GO DOWN IN FREQUENCY. It's just a matter of physics.
Nothing wrong with locally available Adire or Peerless subwoofers.
The Behringer A500 stereo amp with 160W @8ohms (230W @ 4ohms) is a good amount of power for one or two subwoofers.
* The real trick to get high SPL is in the design. For maximum SPL you want to reach close to the maximum excursions limits with the available power on hand.
It sounds like this is your first subwoofer build- go with the recommended cabinets, either ported or sealed (supplied by Peerless or Adire)
For maximum SPL i'd go with vented or PR, which hits greater maximum SPL than sealed.
Everyone wants a "musical" subwoofer sure, but IMHO most people use their subwoofer for predominantly home theater + music; or music + occasional home theatre.
(I have a Dayton 12" DVC driven by a 240W (4ohm) RMS plate amp with slight EQ, in a 1.5cu ft box. Plenty of SPL for home theatre in 6x9 room. In room measured frequency response (hand-held SPL meter) is 25-100Hz (+0, - 3dB)
Some other interesting subwoofers are the TC Sounds and Dayton RS series, but of course shipping is heavy and time consuming.
It seems that you are hell bent on getting maximum SPL, and in this respect bigger drivers and longer excursions will always beat the smaller driver with smaller xmax, particularly as you GO DOWN IN FREQUENCY. It's just a matter of physics.
Nothing wrong with locally available Adire or Peerless subwoofers.
The Behringer A500 stereo amp with 160W @8ohms (230W @ 4ohms) is a good amount of power for one or two subwoofers.
* The real trick to get high SPL is in the design. For maximum SPL you want to reach close to the maximum excursions limits with the available power on hand.
It sounds like this is your first subwoofer build- go with the recommended cabinets, either ported or sealed (supplied by Peerless or Adire)
For maximum SPL i'd go with vented or PR, which hits greater maximum SPL than sealed.
Everyone wants a "musical" subwoofer sure, but IMHO most people use their subwoofer for predominantly home theater + music; or music + occasional home theatre.
(I have a Dayton 12" DVC driven by a 240W (4ohm) RMS plate amp with slight EQ, in a 1.5cu ft box. Plenty of SPL for home theatre in 6x9 room. In room measured frequency response (hand-held SPL meter) is 25-100Hz (+0, - 3dB)
Some other interesting subwoofers are the TC Sounds and Dayton RS series, but of course shipping is heavy and time consuming.
Yes shipping is expensive and involves more waiting, but when you buy local, effectively you have already paid shipping. Often you can get the same driver a little cheaper, even allowing for customs and shipping, although I'd only do it for a driver not available locally.
When I bought my subs I could have got Shiva for $300 but for $320 I got AE speakers AV12 which is a LOT more impressive. Had I bought the Shiva I would have wanted to upgrade long ago.
When I bought my subs I could have got Shiva for $300 but for $320 I got AE speakers AV12 which is a LOT more impressive. Had I bought the Shiva I would have wanted to upgrade long ago.
Thanks for the replies 
The sub will be primarily for music, I do watch a few movies every now and then but at this stage its very much secondary to the music. I don't really want someone rediculously loud (well I do...) but basically I want the volume there if I ever need, even if its only ever to show to mates once every blue moon, I would rather have overkill than not. I've built a few subs before but mainly (in the home anyway) with Jaycar amps. I plan to build this one and get it right and leave it for a long while rather than constantly fiddle with it.
The TC drivers seem pretty intresting and have good xmax figures but the site (o audio) is a bit confusing, I'm not sure if they have the dual 4 Ohm version avalible. Might give them an email and see what the go is.
The sub will be primarily for music, I do watch a few movies every now and then but at this stage its very much secondary to the music. I don't really want someone rediculously loud (well I do...
) but basically I want the volume there if I ever need, even if its only ever to show to mates once every blue moon, I would rather have overkill than not. I've built a few subs before but mainly (in the home anyway) with Jaycar amps. I plan to build this one and get it right and leave it for a long while rather than constantly fiddle with it.The TC drivers seem pretty intresting and have good xmax figures but the site (o audio) is a bit confusing, I'm not sure if they have the dual 4 Ohm version avalible. Might give them an email and see what the go is.
Getting the TC2+ over here is around $350ish AUD so its in the XXLS, Tempest etc price range. The only problem is only the 4Ohm models are avalible. Using WinISD running it in a sealed box compared to the XXLS it doesnt seem that different (if anything the XXLS looks better) however the TC2+ has more Xmax or will that not make a difference? An option is to grab 2 TC2+'s... but it starts to get expensive and would it be worth it?
xmax is definately an advantage. The XLS is a bit limited in that regard.
4 ohms - is that per coil?
To get the most out of the A500 amp you want either a single 8 ohm load which allows you to bridge and get 500w or two 4 ohm loads and get 230w into each. The exception is the XLS which has an impedance which drops abnormally low below its nominal impedance which means extra caution is needed so as not to push the amp beyond its limits.
4 ohms - is that per coil?
To get the most out of the A500 amp you want either a single 8 ohm load which allows you to bridge and get 500w or two 4 ohm loads and get 230w into each. The exception is the XLS which has an impedance which drops abnormally low below its nominal impedance which means extra caution is needed so as not to push the amp beyond its limits.
It's not a good match to your amp. Yes you could get two of them and then have 230w into each, which isn't that bad. You would have plenty of excursion to spare. You could push pull mount them in one corner loaded box and get more output due to increased efficiency. Effectively you get the same amount of power as when bridging into a single 8 ohm load, however the drivers could easily deal with more power. This is not a bad thing as lower distortion would result from this arrangement. You could buy one first, and buy a second later if you wish.
This isn't ideal however.
A single Shiva 15D4 is a good option when it comes to getting the most out of your amp. Series wire it to get 8 ohms and bridge > 500w or use each channel to power one of the VCs. This is fairly cost effective. Most likely you will have some power to spare this way. Not as sexy as the TC2+ (not even close).
Tempest might be worth considering here, or a pair of 15" shivas for some serious oomph!
This is probably a much better option:
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/exodus_cx/
Exodus Audio CX Series
Very nice price for a driver with this kind of motor. I'm not aware of any other drivers at this price point which have a motor system that compares that you can get to Australia. Looks far better than Shiva or Tempest in performance, probably better than the TC sounds driver. I'd expect drivers that compare to it in SQ would be some of the new TC sounds flat BL drivers, top of the range RE audio drivers, Adire Tumult, but not that many others.
This isn't ideal however.
A single Shiva 15D4 is a good option when it comes to getting the most out of your amp. Series wire it to get 8 ohms and bridge > 500w or use each channel to power one of the VCs. This is fairly cost effective. Most likely you will have some power to spare this way. Not as sexy as the TC2+ (not even close).
Tempest might be worth considering here, or a pair of 15" shivas for some serious oomph!
This is probably a much better option:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/exodus_cx/
Exodus Audio CX Series
Very nice price for a driver with this kind of motor. I'm not aware of any other drivers at this price point which have a motor system that compares that you can get to Australia. Looks far better than Shiva or Tempest in performance, probably better than the TC sounds driver. I'd expect drivers that compare to it in SQ would be some of the new TC sounds flat BL drivers, top of the range RE audio drivers, Adire Tumult, but not that many others.
Thanks a lot for the advice,
By push pull mount you mean that they would share the same enclosure and are wired out of phase? Does enclosure size still have to double? What benifits does this have over having the woofers in identical seperate enclosures?
I checked out the CX's and they look (well the XBL^2 does) but as they are 4Ohms shipping 2 over is around the $600 mark if not more which starts to get a bit extreme.
Hmmm, now I'm thinking of dual woofers and dual TC2+'s isnt a great deal different (in price) to Shiva's at this end. However the Shiva's are 15" as opposed to 12" so I'm guessing there would be a bit of an SPL difference. Dual 10" Shiva's look good from a price perspective but the high Fs doesnt look so good.
Food for thought.
Cheers
By push pull mount you mean that they would share the same enclosure and are wired out of phase? Does enclosure size still have to double? What benifits does this have over having the woofers in identical seperate enclosures?
I checked out the CX's and they look (well the XBL^2 does) but as they are 4Ohms shipping 2 over is around the $600 mark if not more which starts to get a bit extreme.
Hmmm, now I'm thinking of dual woofers and dual TC2+'s isnt a great deal different (in price) to Shiva's at this end. However the Shiva's are 15" as opposed to 12" so I'm guessing there would be a bit of an SPL difference. Dual 10" Shiva's look good from a price perspective but the high Fs doesnt look so good.
Food for thought.
Cheers
Kev,
Push pull means two drivers in the same box (double the volume of one driver), one driver with magnet facing out, polarity reversed on one of the drivers. As one pushes the VC out of the magnet gap, the other pulls the VC in to the magnet gap. 2nd order harmonic distortion is lower, the effect is that some non-linearities are cancelled. Subjectively the bass is a little tighter and more accurate.
Two 12"s have more SD than a single 15" and should have more output, but cost more. 15s usually require a much larger box than 12s.
You really need to choose driver and amp together at the same time Kev! I would tend to prioritise it this way: choose the amp that will give your preferred driver the power it needs. The driver is what you see, it's the most impressive part of a sub, and it is the main factor in getting the best SQ.
The cost effective but unexciting choice is a 15" Shiva or Tempest for your amp. It's probably worth the extra for the Tempest considering you have a decent amount of power for this configuration.
A more sexy and expensive choice is dual TC2+ push pull mounted. More stylish and lower distortion, both due to push pull mounting and because the drivers are most likely better. You don't have to buy both drivers at the same time.
Another option is just get a single CX 15" and it will get 250w which isn't that bad. 500w only gives you 3db more output which isn't that much. Later you could add a second driver to give you that 3db extra, and later again you could get a bigger amp that is suitable to drive them both and find another use for the A500.
Push pull means two drivers in the same box (double the volume of one driver), one driver with magnet facing out, polarity reversed on one of the drivers. As one pushes the VC out of the magnet gap, the other pulls the VC in to the magnet gap. 2nd order harmonic distortion is lower, the effect is that some non-linearities are cancelled. Subjectively the bass is a little tighter and more accurate.
Two 12"s have more SD than a single 15" and should have more output, but cost more. 15s usually require a much larger box than 12s.
You really need to choose driver and amp together at the same time Kev! I would tend to prioritise it this way: choose the amp that will give your preferred driver the power it needs. The driver is what you see, it's the most impressive part of a sub, and it is the main factor in getting the best SQ.
The cost effective but unexciting choice is a 15" Shiva or Tempest for your amp. It's probably worth the extra for the Tempest considering you have a decent amount of power for this configuration.
A more sexy and expensive choice is dual TC2+ push pull mounted. More stylish and lower distortion, both due to push pull mounting and because the drivers are most likely better. You don't have to buy both drivers at the same time.
Another option is just get a single CX 15" and it will get 250w which isn't that bad. 500w only gives you 3db more output which isn't that much. Later you could add a second driver to give you that 3db extra, and later again you could get a bigger amp that is suitable to drive them both and find another use for the A500.
I would prefer to do it all in one hit rather than start with one woofer and add another later. I may be going a bit overboard but I'm not how loud loud is if you get my drift, and I would hate to feel the need for something bigger a bit furthar down the track.
I've heard the old Shiva and was quite pleased with the SQ so I don't know if its worth going for something more higher end or not. I've narrowed my options down a bit now and this is what I'm thinking:
Peerless XXLS 830845 in a small sealed box. -Simple, compact, reasonably good by all reports. ~$320
15" Dual 4Ohm Tempest in a sealed box. ~$325
2* 15" Dual 8Ohm Shiva's in a big sealed box. ~$480
2* TC2+'s in a sealed box. ~$520
Is it worth the extra cash for the TC2+'s? Would maybe a 12" or (space permitting) a 15" Tempest is a vented box make a better more cost effective combo? I'm kinda leaning more towards the sealed box because its primarily for music, not because a vented box would sound bad but with the woofers I'm looking at it doesnt seem like the best option.
Thanks
I've heard the old Shiva and was quite pleased with the SQ so I don't know if its worth going for something more higher end or not. I've narrowed my options down a bit now and this is what I'm thinking:
Peerless XXLS 830845 in a small sealed box. -Simple, compact, reasonably good by all reports. ~$320
15" Dual 4Ohm Tempest in a sealed box. ~$325
2* 15" Dual 8Ohm Shiva's in a big sealed box. ~$480
2* TC2+'s in a sealed box. ~$520
Is it worth the extra cash for the TC2+'s? Would maybe a 12" or (space permitting) a 15" Tempest is a vented box make a better more cost effective combo? I'm kinda leaning more towards the sealed box because its primarily for music, not because a vented box would sound bad but with the woofers I'm looking at it doesnt seem like the best option.
Thanks
Big Kev!
As you're probably finding, when max SPL is a concern, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
If you are familiar with using basic T/S parameters, I think you should download a good box modelling program, like Unibox and start modelling some of those drivers.
I politefully disagree with Paul on this one. I think 2x 230W in 4 ohms is plenty. Here's why.
If you design your box carefully, you can hit the excursion limits of your driver before you run out of amplifier power. So you'll be getting the max SPL out of the woofers, with your current amplifier, without ever reaching the subwoofer's maximum power handling (thermal (voice coil) power handling)
As you're probably finding, when max SPL is a concern, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
If you are familiar with using basic T/S parameters, I think you should download a good box modelling program, like Unibox and start modelling some of those drivers.
I politefully disagree with Paul on this one. I think 2x 230W in 4 ohms is plenty. Here's why.
If you design your box carefully, you can hit the excursion limits of your driver before you run out of amplifier power. So you'll be getting the max SPL out of the woofers, with your current amplifier, without ever reaching the subwoofer's maximum power handling (thermal (voice coil) power handling)
Kev, I use two 12" AV12 subs driven by an amp that can put 650w into each. I have had them in a sealed box each, they have 23mm xmax (twice that of XLS). They are more than enough to keep up with my mains. In my medium room (4x5m) I have measured a peak of 108db on a movie from the subs. The mains at listening position can handle not much more than 90 dB, with some changes I'd be lucky to squeeze 95 dB out of them, and you will find this the same with any hifi speaker with two 6.5" drivers. The subs can go louder than I've measured, but the mains won't keep up. In vented boxes with this amp they simulate up to about 120 dB @ 1m but you won't measure that in room.
One XLS in a sealed box won't impress. I'd say two of them in sealed boxes is a minimum. My subs can go quite loud and keep up with the mains with about an inch of excursion.
A single Tempest 15" will most likely satisfy you. Where having more excursion and cone area will help is when you want to get deeper, or reduce distortion by having the drivers not be pushed as hard. I rarely push my drivers beyond half their excursion.
I think you will find the TC2+ is the best of those you mentioned, slightly better than XLS but with more excursion. The Shiva and Tempest would come next, but they are good value for money. It depends on whether you are willing to pay a little more for better performance or better looks.
For music, two sealed subs will give more output than a single vented, but for home theatre their ultimate output down low will be about the same. Put a typical sub in a sealed box and F3 is about 40 Hz, but vented it will get down to 20 Hz, excluding the impact of the room.
Keep in mind it's a good idea to allow for some eq for the bass room modes, like BFD or Ultracurve which I use.
It all comes down to what you decide is important for you, and what you prefer. Are you going to cover the driver with a grille and leave it on? If so, go with Tempest 15" and with the money saved buy at least BFD if not Ultracurve to eq the whole system flat. If you want it sexy, go TC2+ and ideally add on some eq to it later. XLS is good but TC2+ is better in looks, performance and output and worth the extra. If you want to blow your pants off, then get a pair of Shiva 15s put them in a tall box in the corner, vented and push pull mounted - design it well and integrate it well with eq and it will go low for HT and be musical at the same time.
One XLS in a sealed box won't impress. I'd say two of them in sealed boxes is a minimum. My subs can go quite loud and keep up with the mains with about an inch of excursion.
A single Tempest 15" will most likely satisfy you. Where having more excursion and cone area will help is when you want to get deeper, or reduce distortion by having the drivers not be pushed as hard. I rarely push my drivers beyond half their excursion.
I think you will find the TC2+ is the best of those you mentioned, slightly better than XLS but with more excursion. The Shiva and Tempest would come next, but they are good value for money. It depends on whether you are willing to pay a little more for better performance or better looks.
For music, two sealed subs will give more output than a single vented, but for home theatre their ultimate output down low will be about the same. Put a typical sub in a sealed box and F3 is about 40 Hz, but vented it will get down to 20 Hz, excluding the impact of the room.
Keep in mind it's a good idea to allow for some eq for the bass room modes, like BFD or Ultracurve which I use.
It all comes down to what you decide is important for you, and what you prefer. Are you going to cover the driver with a grille and leave it on? If so, go with Tempest 15" and with the money saved buy at least BFD if not Ultracurve to eq the whole system flat. If you want it sexy, go TC2+ and ideally add on some eq to it later. XLS is good but TC2+ is better in looks, performance and output and worth the extra. If you want to blow your pants off, then get a pair of Shiva 15s put them in a tall box in the corner, vented and push pull mounted - design it well and integrate it well with eq and it will go low for HT and be musical at the same time.
That would depend on the driver in question. My drivers would be underpowered with 230w, but 650w is just about right. Many drivers will perform adequately with 230w or less.
I recall hearing a sealed 15" Tempest powered by a 250w plate amp, then by a pro 550w amp. The plate amp would have enough power by the estimation of most, however, the pro amp clearly was far superior in punch and authority - it was not a subtle difference. I suspect the difference was that the higher power amp was able to handle transients where the plate amp was probably clipping. The difference in this case was easily noticeable, not the kind that you need a blind AB test to prove - our jaws dropped.
Now is a good time to do some sims with WinISD pro and this will give an idea of how the options compare in terms of SPL and extension.
Once again thanks for all the help
I'd previously only modelled the DVC TC2+ in WinISD but I've just plugged in the standard TC2+ and the results arn't all that great comparitivly (-3dB at 56Hz) in a sealed box although it seems to perform better in a vented box and the boxes don't require much space. I could be completely off the mark but they seem to be more like "car subs". However that said I've spent a fair bit of time fiddling with WinISD in the past and have built a few subs and what looks good on the graph isnt exactly what sounds the best in the real world.
On the grille issue, no way! Half the fun is seeing the driver move I'm only a uni student so at this stage I don't have to worry about the whole Spouce Approval Factor
Early today I was leaning towards the whole dual TC2+'s but after playing with WinISD it seems to show that SPL would be on par with a single Tempest which while I definatly agree does not look as cool as dual TC2+'s there is the cost factor. WinISD only seems to calculate SPL by Power and the SPL figure though?? I'm guessing there are other factors here that influence SPL in the real world (given the same enviromental conditions)? I have a sub which is 97dB (at 2.83V mind you) however the xmax is only 9mm and other subs I've heard with greatly more xmax but far less SPL perform much louder.
I'm tossing up between the single Tempest and the dual TC2+'s at the moment (dual 15 Shivas would be awesome but I don't know if I'm ready for a 250L+ box) unless someone wants to suggest something entirely different and confuse me again
Thanks a lot,
Kev
I'd previously only modelled the DVC TC2+ in WinISD but I've just plugged in the standard TC2+ and the results arn't all that great comparitivly (-3dB at 56Hz) in a sealed box although it seems to perform better in a vented box and the boxes don't require much space. I could be completely off the mark but they seem to be more like "car subs". However that said I've spent a fair bit of time fiddling with WinISD in the past and have built a few subs and what looks good on the graph isnt exactly what sounds the best in the real world.
On the grille issue, no way! Half the fun is seeing the driver move
I'm only a uni student so at this stage I don't have to worry about the whole Spouce Approval Factor Early today I was leaning towards the whole dual TC2+'s but after playing with WinISD it seems to show that SPL would be on par with a single Tempest which while I definatly agree does not look as cool as dual TC2+'s there is the cost factor. WinISD only seems to calculate SPL by Power and the SPL figure though?? I'm guessing there are other factors here that influence SPL in the real world (given the same enviromental conditions)? I have a sub which is 97dB (at 2.83V mind you) however the xmax is only 9mm and other subs I've heard with greatly more xmax but far less SPL perform much louder.
I'm tossing up between the single Tempest and the dual TC2+'s at the moment (dual 15 Shivas would be awesome but I don't know if I'm ready for a 250L+ box) unless someone wants to suggest something entirely different and confuse me again
Thanks a lot,
Kev
Kev, when I get the chance I will do some sims, but have to enter in driver parameters properly first. There more I learn, the more I find you can get a driver to do what you want with a few tricks that aren't obvious with the first box you model. Also keep in mind that with a sealed box you can use the one band of parametric eq you have - experiment also with the Q since you can change that with a resistor.
This is a quickie ... Tempest vs TC2+, sealed vs vented, each with rumble filter and low pass @ 70 Hz.
Tempest sealed 100L
Tempest vented 200L @ 20 Hz
TC sealed 75L
TC vented 120L @ 20 Hz
Not necessarily optimal designs, but an indication. Eq used for the sealed subs to get a similar response.
Two TC12" subs are almost identical with this setup to a single Tempest.
Chart shows max SPL as limited either by xmax or amp power. Aargh, just remembered that the TC is 4 ohms hence for one driver there will be 3db less output for the vented version, but the sealed version won't be affected.
It's a beauty and the best comparison. Clearly from a bang for buck comparison point of view, the Tempest wins easily. The TC has shorting rings and almost certainly lower distortion, although this is offset by the Tempest being a larger driver. The TC is going to be a lot prettier to watch move.
Tempest sealed 100L
Tempest vented 200L @ 20 Hz
TC sealed 75L
TC vented 120L @ 20 Hz
Not necessarily optimal designs, but an indication. Eq used for the sealed subs to get a similar response.
Two TC12" subs are almost identical with this setup to a single Tempest.
Chart shows max SPL as limited either by xmax or amp power. Aargh, just remembered that the TC is 4 ohms hence for one driver there will be 3db less output for the vented version, but the sealed version won't be affected.
It's a beauty and the best comparison. Clearly from a bang for buck comparison point of view, the Tempest wins easily. The TC has shorting rings and almost certainly lower distortion, although this is offset by the Tempest being a larger driver. The TC is going to be a lot prettier to watch move.
Attachments
You miss my point Paul. I'm not talking about desired amplifier power, voltage or current limits, nor non-linear distortion characteristics near clipping. I'm not talking about a specific driver's Pe (voice coil's thermal power handling) rating.
I'm talking about a driver's maximum in-box, excursion limited maximum SPL.
Linkwitz provided a better explanation than I could ever do, when he describe his Thor subwoofer design.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor_splmax.htm
There is a way that you can maximise your SPL with your current available amplifier. You don't always need a bigger driver, more xmax or more amplifier power.
Here's an example of choosing a 10" over a 12" to get MORE maximum SPL, when using a fixed amplifier and desired box size- http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
Since Big Kev already has chosen his amplifiers, I strongly recommend he use Unibox or Closedbox.xls to explore this further.
I'm talking about a driver's maximum in-box, excursion limited maximum SPL.
Linkwitz provided a better explanation than I could ever do, when he describe his Thor subwoofer design.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor_splmax.htm
There is a way that you can maximise your SPL with your current available amplifier. You don't always need a bigger driver, more xmax or more amplifier power.
Here's an example of choosing a 10" over a 12" to get MORE maximum SPL, when using a fixed amplifier and desired box size- http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
Since Big Kev already has chosen his amplifiers, I strongly recommend he use Unibox or Closedbox.xls to explore this further.
I'm not interested in having a debate here, or discussing whether or not I have missed your point. I'm only interested in helping Kev make an informed decision he will be happy with. You're probably not interested in a debate either.
Linkwitz was talking about a sealed box which would tend to limit power required and SPL capability. For a fixed box size, sealed box and a given amplifier, the bigger driver won't necessarily have more SPL.
However, the only fixed entity is the amplifier. He may choose sealed or vented, one or two drivers, a small or large box. A vented box will most likely benefit from more power, not that this is relevant now since amp is already chosen. For a given amount of power, a bigger driver and bigger box will most likely mean more SPL, although of course, it depends ...
So am I since this is what counts - the only max SPL that counts is what you have considering thermal and xmax limited power, as well as amplifier power.
I'll go back to the point at which we seem to disagree ...
My main point is that this depends. He has not chosen a driver yet. If this is enough depends on the driver, the box and the design. As you say, there is more than one way. Linkwitz also states in more elaborate terms that "it depends." This is what I'm saying.
I know from theory and practice that 230w will sometimes be enough, and at other times, quite a bit less than optimum. I know this both from simulations and from experience with different subs. I'm sure you will agree that a blanket statement can't be made, and that you must consider the driver, the box and the design.
So if we are going to disagree, then let's have a specific driver, box and design to agree or disagree on. That can then be helpful for Kev, rather than discussing theory and getting caught up in one of those debates. He can choose which view sounds most suitable or come up with his own version.
One more point to consider is that it's not only about SPL but also SQ. In my earlier comparison of a plate amp and a pro amp driving a Tempest sealed sub, I found the improvement was not about SPL but about the pro amp having far more authority and punch - it was more dynamic.
For max SPL and depth, a Tempest 200L vented box does it well. Use a 6" vent (PVC) and it will keep turbulence down without being too long. The box could be approx 450 x 450mm footprint and 1.4m or so tall. Yes quite large, but it doesn't occupy too much floorspace.
With the rumble filter the air velocity peaks at around 19m/s - ok if you have decent vent flares.
You can achieve 115db in the midbass and exceed 110db @ 20 Hz, 113 db @ 25 Hz.
If you go with the TC2+ in a 100L vented box, you can reach 109 db in the midbass and 103 db @ 20 Hz, 107 db @ 25 Hz.
Vent velocity is quite low with a 6" vent, lower than the Tempest which requires more attention to the aerodynamics to avoid chuffing. 6" vent must be 1m which is long, but possible.
If you go with two of the TC2+, then the size will be the same as the Tumult, and you will reach 115 db in the midbass, 109 db @ 100 Hz and 113 dB @ 25 Hz - essentially identical to the Tempest response (almost).
With the rumble filter the air velocity peaks at around 19m/s - ok if you have decent vent flares.
You can achieve 115db in the midbass and exceed 110db @ 20 Hz, 113 db @ 25 Hz.
If you go with the TC2+ in a 100L vented box, you can reach 109 db in the midbass and 103 db @ 20 Hz, 107 db @ 25 Hz.
Vent velocity is quite low with a 6" vent, lower than the Tempest which requires more attention to the aerodynamics to avoid chuffing. 6" vent must be 1m which is long, but possible.
If you go with two of the TC2+, then the size will be the same as the Tumult, and you will reach 115 db in the midbass, 109 db @ 100 Hz and 113 dB @ 25 Hz - essentially identical to the Tempest response (almost).
Thanks a lot for the continuing help Paul
The extra money for the TC2+'s plus the waiting for them to be shipped over isnt make them that attractive. As far as SQ goes I know vented doesn't mean bad SQ but I would like something pretty tight, I hate sloppy bass and having the double kicks on drums blurring into each other. I don't really know much about the SQ difference between the TC2+ and the Tempest, would it be a slight difference or something highly noticable? As you can tell I was leaning towards sealed boxes before as its easier to eq (with what I've got) and its pretty safe in terms of group delay and the like. The vented tempest looks pretty cool but I would have to seriously consider the size of the box.
I would love to run 2 TC2+'s (one inverted) purely for asthetics but its a lot extra to pay just for looks. Seeing as my budget seems to have crept up slightly is there anything like the Tempest but perhaps with better SQ (and better looking)? I'm guessing as I start to get higher up amplifier power is going to start being an issue.
Edit: Sorry I was typing as you posted above!
The extra money for the TC2+'s plus the waiting for them to be shipped over isnt make them that attractive. As far as SQ goes I know vented doesn't mean bad SQ but I would like something pretty tight, I hate sloppy bass and having the double kicks on drums blurring into each other. I don't really know much about the SQ difference between the TC2+ and the Tempest, would it be a slight difference or something highly noticable? As you can tell I was leaning towards sealed boxes before as its easier to eq (with what I've got) and its pretty safe in terms of group delay and the like. The vented tempest looks pretty cool but I would have to seriously consider the size of the box.
I would love to run 2 TC2+'s (one inverted) purely for asthetics but its a lot extra to pay just for looks. Seeing as my budget seems to have crept up slightly is there anything like the Tempest but perhaps with better SQ (and better looking
)? I'm guessing as I start to get higher up amplifier power is going to start being an issue.Edit: Sorry I was typing as you posted above!
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