Gee, my title kind of sounds like a pickup line for an online personals ad...
Anyway, I am very frustrated. At present, I am running a Blueprint 1503 in about 7 cubic feet, tuned to around 18Hz. At first, I complained that it wasn't musical enough (which, at the time, was true). I managed to cram a little damping material in there, which helped a little. Now that I've changed receivers to one that has a much more complex bass-management system, it sounds much, much better. So if it is absolutely great for home theater, and is much better for music, what is my complaint?
The size of the beast. It is a sono-sub, so the tube itself is 16" in diameter, but the base is 18" in diameter. And, the thing is abut 6-feet tall. Very unsightly, to boot. I want something smaller, but I have particular demands... These are:
*I don't want to lose very much of my HT performance
*I want an extremely musical, non-boomy sub for music
*I want a box, not a tube
*The box cannot exceed 24" cubed (the smaller, the better, really)
*Must have high-power handling and boast an impressive SPL, in case I need to show off at any time
As far as HT goes... The current alignment hit -3dB pretty high, but stays -3dB all the way down to 17Hz or so. So, in a sense, it is a flat frequency response. But, group delay is enormous. I think it hits something on the order of 60ms at 20Hz. And, like I mentioned before, the size is killer. I need something more pretty to look at.
As far as music goes... I have had my eye on servo subs for some time now. I am lusting after a Velodyne HGS/DD or Paradigm Servo-15, but they are simply WAY out of budget. I cannot afford $2000-$3000 for a sub (for anything, really). I definitely want servo performance for music. I need smooth, blending bass because I mainly listen to classical music at lower levels. However, if I do switch to rock music, I also need powerful, well-articulated slam for kick-drums.
As I mentioned before, I have the Blueprint 1503 already. It seems to be a solid driver, but I've heard that these things have enormous inductance, which could be a key to my problems. I am not keen on using a parametric EQ because I don't have the time or patience to get everything flat. Plus, I really want to rid myself of that unsightly tube.
For budget, I could go as high as $1000, but would prefer to do much, much, much less. As cheap as possible, really.
To sum up:
*Low distortion, servo-like performance for music (smooth for classical, yet powerful for rock)
*Maintain powerful slam and dig deep for HT
*Smaller box (preferably sealed)
*As cheap as possible
I wish I knew the exact Le of the Blueprint, it would help out in simulations. Anyway, what I am asking will most likely need a very high Xmax driver, or several slightly smaller drivers. Yes?
I am thinking something on par with a Sunfire... Does anyone have any ideas on how I could go about getting something like this working?
Hopefully this will spark some creative thinking that will yield a creative answer...
Thanks all
Anyway, I am very frustrated. At present, I am running a Blueprint 1503 in about 7 cubic feet, tuned to around 18Hz. At first, I complained that it wasn't musical enough (which, at the time, was true). I managed to cram a little damping material in there, which helped a little. Now that I've changed receivers to one that has a much more complex bass-management system, it sounds much, much better. So if it is absolutely great for home theater, and is much better for music, what is my complaint?
The size of the beast. It is a sono-sub, so the tube itself is 16" in diameter, but the base is 18" in diameter. And, the thing is abut 6-feet tall. Very unsightly, to boot. I want something smaller, but I have particular demands... These are:
*I don't want to lose very much of my HT performance
*I want an extremely musical, non-boomy sub for music
*I want a box, not a tube
*The box cannot exceed 24" cubed (the smaller, the better, really)
*Must have high-power handling and boast an impressive SPL, in case I need to show off at any time
As far as HT goes... The current alignment hit -3dB pretty high, but stays -3dB all the way down to 17Hz or so. So, in a sense, it is a flat frequency response. But, group delay is enormous. I think it hits something on the order of 60ms at 20Hz. And, like I mentioned before, the size is killer. I need something more pretty to look at.
As far as music goes... I have had my eye on servo subs for some time now. I am lusting after a Velodyne HGS/DD or Paradigm Servo-15, but they are simply WAY out of budget. I cannot afford $2000-$3000 for a sub (for anything, really). I definitely want servo performance for music. I need smooth, blending bass because I mainly listen to classical music at lower levels. However, if I do switch to rock music, I also need powerful, well-articulated slam for kick-drums.
As I mentioned before, I have the Blueprint 1503 already. It seems to be a solid driver, but I've heard that these things have enormous inductance, which could be a key to my problems. I am not keen on using a parametric EQ because I don't have the time or patience to get everything flat. Plus, I really want to rid myself of that unsightly tube.
For budget, I could go as high as $1000, but would prefer to do much, much, much less. As cheap as possible, really.
To sum up:
*Low distortion, servo-like performance for music (smooth for classical, yet powerful for rock)
*Maintain powerful slam and dig deep for HT
*Smaller box (preferably sealed)
*As cheap as possible
I wish I knew the exact Le of the Blueprint, it would help out in simulations. Anyway, what I am asking will most likely need a very high Xmax driver, or several slightly smaller drivers. Yes?
I am thinking something on par with a Sunfire... Does anyone have any ideas on how I could go about getting something like this working?
Hopefully this will spark some creative thinking that will yield a creative answer...
Thanks all
I just finished a pair of the Peerless XLS 10" with the passive radiator in a little over a cubic foot box. I can't believe how accurate they sound. i would really recommend that you get two smaller subs like this. Less stress on each individual sub, smaller enclosures, and if you place them right you get the amazing benefits that a pair of subs have when it comes to eliminating standing waves. Almost no dead spots in the room.
I'm not sure if it will go quite as low as you want, buy I love my Dayton RSHF 12" sub. The sound quality is really nice regardless of the price IMHO, though the cost is quite reasonable too. My hearing cuts out at ~23Hz, but the sub hits hard down to that and below (I can see the cone going nuts, but can't hear anything), but I haven't measured to get great numbers, but qualitatively I am really happy with it so far. If you throw a couple of those together with the amp of your choice, you should be able to get some serious output without sacrificing too much space or sound quality.
I am sure there are better options out there, but I am really happy with mine!
I am sure there are better options out there, but I am really happy with mine!
Dual 18" SA-PR18-2500 PRs will do with your blueprint 1503, in 22" cubed box (17.4 Hz tuning, group delay ~23 ms at 20 Hz excluding Le since no one knows it, will achieve around 125+ dB SPL in a corner with 1000W RMS imput from 17 to 200+ Hz with a -3 dB point around 15 Hz), available here :
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/passive_radiators/stryke_pr18/
or here :
http://yellow.mynethost.com/~bv1263...id=39&osCsid=6dc8b8933510c5d8e645d378eb4a306d
Now at the end you talk about something small with servo performance, then I would suggest purchasing as much Rythmik Audio Servo kits that you can afford... they are 409$ each currently on sale, available here :
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/servo_product.htm
You will lose this with the servo, well depending how much kits you purchase...
I have been discounting the Peerless for years because they have such a low Xmax, but I suppose they are good sounding drivers (which would account for their popularity). The same thing with the Daytons since they came out. They are good lookking drivers, but I prefer a little more excursion head room...
I've had my eye on the Rythmik kits for some time now, but I am holding out (possibly indefinitely) until he gets a 15" version out there.
I am at work right now, so I cannot do any figuring, but I will when I get home. I am going to play with a setup kind of like the Velodyne 1812, except mine will have to be a 1512 (unless I replace the Blueprint). I still have an old DPL12 hanging around, which was a darned good sounding, low-distortion driver, but it did absolutely nothing for HT. Maybe I can get something rigged up...
I am also going to see if I can borrow some kind of meter from someone that measures inductance so I can figure out, once and for all, what kind of inductance the 1503 has...
Thanks again all...
I've had my eye on the Rythmik kits for some time now, but I am holding out (possibly indefinitely) until he gets a 15" version out there.
I am at work right now, so I cannot do any figuring, but I will when I get home. I am going to play with a setup kind of like the Velodyne 1812, except mine will have to be a 1512 (unless I replace the Blueprint). I still have an old DPL12 hanging around, which was a darned good sounding, low-distortion driver, but it did absolutely nothing for HT. Maybe I can get something rigged up...
I am also going to see if I can borrow some kind of meter from someone that measures inductance so I can figure out, once and for all, what kind of inductance the 1503 has...
Thanks again all...
What would be the drawbacks of using one AE PR18-1600 instead of two 2500's? And, what would be the drawbacks of using three PR15-1050's instead of either of those?
I can get three 1050's for only $10 more than one 1600, and $15 less than one 2500. And, I can always add more mass to them to get what I want from them... But, what would I be giving up for this?
Thanks...
I can get three 1050's for only $10 more than one 1600, and $15 less than one 2500. And, I can always add more mass to them to get what I want from them... But, what would I be giving up for this?
Thanks...
One AE PR18-1600 will lack excursion if you want to use the full power your driver can take (1000W) at frequencies under ~17 Hz.
The rolloff is less shallow with two PR18s and the PRs never run out of excursion. Dual PRs cancel each other motion so your subwoofer will not walk on the floor.
You are right, my solution was a bit overkill.
A single AE PR18-1600 will work correctly.
Two AE PR15-1050 with 350g added mass on each will work correctly.
Three AE PR15-1050 with 750g added mass on each will work perfectly.
I'd use dual 15" instead of a single 18" so it doesn't walk on the floor.
If you have spare money, dual 18" or triple 15" is nice for bragging rights. You can also achieve a better rolloff IMO, closer to room gain. Also, if you like it loud, it will be less problematic, because you could only blow your woofer, the PRs will survive any abuse.
Single 18" and dual 15" are close to their excursion limits. You must tune the PRs lower to switch the excursion limit a bit lower in frequency but you get a faster rolloff. Of course, if you use a rumble filter, it's less problematic hehe!
The rolloff is less shallow with two PR18s and the PRs never run out of excursion. Dual PRs cancel each other motion so your subwoofer will not walk on the floor.
You are right, my solution was a bit overkill.
A single AE PR18-1600 will work correctly.
Two AE PR15-1050 with 350g added mass on each will work correctly.
Three AE PR15-1050 with 750g added mass on each will work perfectly.
I'd use dual 15" instead of a single 18" so it doesn't walk on the floor.
If you have spare money, dual 18" or triple 15" is nice for bragging rights. You can also achieve a better rolloff IMO, closer to room gain. Also, if you like it loud, it will be less problematic, because you could only blow your woofer, the PRs will survive any abuse.
Single 18" and dual 15" are close to their excursion limits. You must tune the PRs lower to switch the excursion limit a bit lower in frequency but you get a faster rolloff. Of course, if you use a rumble filter, it's less problematic hehe!
I like the look of the Blueprint in 3.5 cubic feet (100 liters) with three PR15's at 1800 grams each... All except the group delay. I fixed some problems and screwed up others. The design is only about 4dB down at 20Hz and the driver runs out of Xmax at 17Hz (though my understanding is that the driver won't actually harm itself until it is doing something like 38mm one way), so I am still ok in theory. Group delay is showing up as 37ms. My current design (EBS) is only at 31ms. But, it is poorly built. So any properly built design should be better, yes?
I would like to keep the box size down, otherwise I would make it larger to lower the tuning and shift the group delay downward. I could use the PR18s to lower the tuning... But they cost so much more. Oh, what to do...
EDIT: And another thing I just thought of... If I use three passives, I will have drivers on all four sides (I don't want to do down-firing). So that leaves no space for the amp. I am currently using a power amp, but I really wanted to move to a plate amp with auto on/off (I usually forget to turn the sub amp off for a day or so, which can really run up the power bill). I may have to go with two 15's or 18's... More thinking to do...
I would like to keep the box size down, otherwise I would make it larger to lower the tuning and shift the group delay downward. I could use the PR18s to lower the tuning... But they cost so much more. Oh, what to do...
EDIT: And another thing I just thought of... If I use three passives, I will have drivers on all four sides (I don't want to do down-firing). So that leaves no space for the amp. I am currently using a power amp, but I really wanted to move to a plate amp with auto on/off (I usually forget to turn the sub amp off for a day or so, which can really run up the power bill). I may have to go with two 15's or 18's... More thinking to do...
You could put the amplifier below or on top hehe!
I prefer 135 liters (22"x22"x22" external) with three 1800g PR15s, or two 2500g PR18s, you could purchase the 1600g versions and add mass to reach 2500g. Lower tuning, lower group delay too. ~24 ms at 20 Hz.
Two PR15s in 135 liters with 350g mass added on both is a nice compromise IMO. But, imagine the look for a second of a dual 18" PR powered subwoofer! BTW, if the driver isn't good enough after you've built this, the 18" PRs could be used with an even better/beefier driver since they have so much excursion.
A properly built box can do wonders. I was amazed my the box I built. I'd say it's 75% box and 25% driver.
I prefer 135 liters (22"x22"x22" external) with three 1800g PR15s, or two 2500g PR18s, you could purchase the 1600g versions and add mass to reach 2500g. Lower tuning, lower group delay too. ~24 ms at 20 Hz.
Two PR15s in 135 liters with 350g mass added on both is a nice compromise IMO. But, imagine the look for a second of a dual 18" PR powered subwoofer!
BTW, if the driver isn't good enough after you've built this, the 18" PRs could be used with an even better/beefier driver since they have so much excursion.A properly built box can do wonders. I was amazed my the box I built. I'd say it's 75% box and 25% driver.
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