Hello All,Can I ask,has anyone done this?I have a pair of 3 way loudspeakers that use 12" woofers.Would it be possible to add a linkwitz transform circuit instead of any form of bass boost circuit? Or would the signal be ruined from an audiophile/quality point of view.After all it could accept a non low pass filtered signal and boosts low in the freqency range,not to effect mid.Therefore would the speaker system work?Probably not as well as a seperate sub,which every audiophiles main question is "what about the wife?".
Unfortunatly,my wife loves "her" speakers,and a sub is not allowed!
EQing is acceptable....
Thanks.mikee55
Unfortunatly,my wife loves "her" speakers,and a sub is not allowed!
EQing is acceptable....Thanks.mikee55
Mike, yes it can be done.
The question is should it be done!
SPL will be limited by excursion. Also, if it is not undersized, then simple bass boost will do.
If it is an active speaker then you can add on a LT circuit which you would have to custom-make, and include a power supply (or tap in to an existing one). If it is a passive speaker, then you need to be able to get in between the pre and power amps.
Have you considered some creative ways to get a sub into the room unobtrusively?
The question is should it be done!
SPL will be limited by excursion. Also, if it is not undersized, then simple bass boost will do.
If it is an active speaker then you can add on a LT circuit which you would have to custom-make, and include a power supply (or tap in to an existing one). If it is a passive speaker, then you need to be able to get in between the pre and power amps.
Have you considered some creative ways to get a sub into the room unobtrusively?
What are my options?
Hi mate,I'm limited to what I can do to hide a sub.I've considered a fair few ideas
inside sofa,"no"
tv stand,got LCD,"no"
IB ceiling,"WHAT! NO"
Have tried bass boost,but voices always seem to boom,especially Female radio/tv presenters,artist and actresses.Graphic EQ's aren't any better either.I'm not after explosions but depth can help movies and I do like underground Dance (Rave Oldskool Hardhouse).Although my room is appx 4m x 3m x 2m(h) there must be somthing I can do?(as long as she's happy)
Cheers Mikee55
Hi mate,I'm limited to what I can do to hide a sub.I've considered a fair few ideas
inside sofa,"no"
tv stand,got LCD,"no"
IB ceiling,"WHAT! NO"
Have tried bass boost,but voices always seem to boom,especially Female radio/tv presenters,artist and actresses.Graphic EQ's aren't any better either.I'm not after explosions but depth can help movies and I do like underground Dance (Rave Oldskool Hardhouse).Although my room is appx 4m x 3m x 2m(h) there must be somthing I can do?(as long as she's happy)
Cheers Mikee55
Personally I think it's a fine idea if :
a) It's a sealed box (as phase_accurate mentioned).
b) The 12" woofer is of good quality
c) The electronics in the LT circuit is of good quality.
I assume you are inserting the LT circuit between pre and power amps.
Having said that, I wouldn't do it myself (bit of a purist) because you are adding another op-amp into the fullrange signal path.
a) It's a sealed box (as phase_accurate mentioned).
b) The 12" woofer is of good quality
c) The electronics in the LT circuit is of good quality.
I assume you are inserting the LT circuit between pre and power amps.
Having said that, I wouldn't do it myself (bit of a purist) because you are adding another op-amp into the fullrange signal path.
They're sealed
Hi,They're 22.5" x 14 x10"(hwd-internal with no T/S parameters) sealed cabs.Sticker on back says response down to 45hz and 50w power.I know they might not be up to being LT'ed,but I did try an LT on one cab when I first discovered the circuit on Linkwitz's website.I didn't attempt to tune the circuit,I just used his values.The room filled up with bass on the end of my 100w (peak power) amp,and because I only made a mono circuit and didn't tune it properly (let alone play any music-I just tested that it worked),I don't know how well it sounded or whether it was better than a bass/treble control with respect to vocals.I played some Hardhouse and got a nice sounding bass and after 1 minute,disconnected it and stuck it in my car.Is it possible?
Thankyou.mikee55
Hi,They're 22.5" x 14 x10"(hwd-internal with no T/S parameters) sealed cabs.Sticker on back says response down to 45hz and 50w power.I know they might not be up to being LT'ed,but I did try an LT on one cab when I first discovered the circuit on Linkwitz's website.I didn't attempt to tune the circuit,I just used his values.The room filled up with bass on the end of my 100w (peak power) amp,and because I only made a mono circuit and didn't tune it properly (let alone play any music-I just tested that it worked),I don't know how well it sounded or whether it was better than a bass/treble control with respect to vocals.I played some Hardhouse and got a nice sounding bass and after 1 minute,disconnected it and stuck it in my car.Is it possible?
Thankyou.mikee55
If you don't have driver parameters, how are you going to design it?
A LT is based on fs, VAS, Qts and Vb. If you only have Vb then its a case of pin the tail on the donkey!
Here's info on making one:
http://sound.westhost.com/project71.htm
A simple one band of parametric eq sounds like it might serve you better. You can tweak it for different music, and adjust til you like what you hear.
Each octave lower requires 4x displacement, hence moving the F3 down from 45 Hz to 20 Hz requires over 4x the excursion. This could reduce output by 24 dB or more!
Lets say your speaker can reach 100db peaks at the moment - quite respectable. Now add in the boost to lower the F3 down to 20 Hz and you now can only hit 76 dB where there is some deep bass. If you turn it up you might get drivers bottoming.
I'm curious: what bothers your partner about the ideas you've had, esp IB?
What about a triangular sub that fits in a corner painted the same colour as the walls to look it is part of the walls?
A LT is based on fs, VAS, Qts and Vb. If you only have Vb then its a case of pin the tail on the donkey!
Here's info on making one:
http://sound.westhost.com/project71.htm
A simple one band of parametric eq sounds like it might serve you better. You can tweak it for different music, and adjust til you like what you hear.
Each octave lower requires 4x displacement, hence moving the F3 down from 45 Hz to 20 Hz requires over 4x the excursion. This could reduce output by 24 dB or more!
Lets say your speaker can reach 100db peaks at the moment - quite respectable. Now add in the boost to lower the F3 down to 20 Hz and you now can only hit 76 dB where there is some deep bass. If you turn it up you might get drivers bottoming.
I'm curious: what bothers your partner about the ideas you've had, esp IB?
What about a triangular sub that fits in a corner painted the same colour as the walls to look it is part of the walls?
Hello
Hi Paul Spencer,I was planning on measuring the parameters for the speakers.I don't normaly have the system playing loud with respect to my neighbour.How would a parametric help? Wouldn't this be similar to LT,trying to boost bass? Isn't this type of Eq meant to correct a lumpy response?Could you explain how I could use it,please.
Having big speakers in the lounge,is bad enough with not much room,an extra box would take up more room!,says the misses.
What if I replaced the mids with a small bass/mid say from Audax?Put a pipe from baffle to back,to create a box in a box.Use another amp to power the mid/bass and tweeter,then an active crossover on the bass driver,effectivly bi-amping.Perhaps a Class A emitter follower,from Rod's site for the Bass/mid and treble.And then try and sort the bottom end.
Cheers.Mike
Hi Paul Spencer,I was planning on measuring the parameters for the speakers.I don't normaly have the system playing loud with respect to my neighbour.How would a parametric help? Wouldn't this be similar to LT,trying to boost bass? Isn't this type of Eq meant to correct a lumpy response?Could you explain how I could use it,please.
Having big speakers in the lounge,is bad enough with not much room,an extra box would take up more room!,says the misses.
What if I replaced the mids with a small bass/mid say from Audax?Put a pipe from baffle to back,to create a box in a box.Use another amp to power the mid/bass and tweeter,then an active crossover on the bass driver,effectivly bi-amping.Perhaps a Class A emitter follower,from Rod's site for the Bass/mid and treble.And then try and sort the bottom end.
Cheers.Mike
You don't need to know Fs or Vas or Qts, what matters is the in-box response. So you don't need to take anything apart just measure Fc and Qtc. This is slightly simplistic approach in that you can't model the excursion, but for a novice or a quick way, it's fine - just use your ears to see if it's loud enough or clean enough.
And the comment regarding group delay - the LT actually usually improves GD, if Qt is lowered (which it usually is).
And the comment regarding group delay - the LT actually usually improves GD, if Qt is lowered (which it usually is).
A parametric eq can be used in different ways. In this case a single band can be used. The advantage is it is adjustable. I have one on my subwoofer crossover and I use it sometimes to quickly tweak the bass. I suggest it as an alternative.
Yes an extra box takes up room, but an IB does not, hence my curiosity why she objected.
Yes you can go active but I would first try messing with the boost/LT and see how it goes. Going from passive to active can be a backward step if it is not correctly optimised. This is coming from someone who has since gone back to passive until I tackle it again and do it right!
Yes an extra box takes up room, but an IB does not, hence my curiosity why she objected.
Yes you can go active but I would first try messing with the boost/LT and see how it goes. Going from passive to active can be a backward step if it is not correctly optimised. This is coming from someone who has since gone back to passive until I tackle it again and do it right!
A parametric eq can be as simple as making a single band which has an adjustable corner frequency and amplitude like the one I have built into my sub xo.
A more sophisticated unit would be Behringer Ultracurve DEQ2496 which I have as well. What you can do with it is insert it in between your pre and power amps and run "auto eq" where with a mic in the listening position it adjusts the 20 - 20 k to get it flat. This not only can give you eq to get it flat as low as you want to 20, but also flattens the midrange and you can tailor the response to suit tastes. I use it to soften the treble slightly and sometimes add a gentle bass boost. The auto eq uses 1/3 octave bands of eq but you also have a number of bands of fully parametric eq, which includes also choosing the Q of each band.
In your case I would try this before delving into an active xo.
As an added bonus you get a RTA where you can see the deep bass content in real time.
Some reviews:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0101/behringer8024.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/behringerultracurve2496.htm
As an alternative, if you did want to get into active xo you could look at its brother, ultradrive dcx which also has some eq, although the eq it has is less powerful. The eq it has is enough to tame some room modes and add some bass boost.
behringer website:
http://www.behringer.com/Deq2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
A more sophisticated unit would be Behringer Ultracurve DEQ2496 which I have as well. What you can do with it is insert it in between your pre and power amps and run "auto eq" where with a mic in the listening position it adjusts the 20 - 20 k to get it flat. This not only can give you eq to get it flat as low as you want to 20, but also flattens the midrange and you can tailor the response to suit tastes. I use it to soften the treble slightly and sometimes add a gentle bass boost. The auto eq uses 1/3 octave bands of eq but you also have a number of bands of fully parametric eq, which includes also choosing the Q of each band.
In your case I would try this before delving into an active xo.
As an added bonus you get a RTA where you can see the deep bass content in real time.
Some reviews:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0101/behringer8024.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/behringerultracurve2496.htm
As an alternative, if you did want to get into active xo you could look at its brother, ultradrive dcx which also has some eq, although the eq it has is less powerful. The eq it has is enough to tame some room modes and add some bass boost.
behringer website:
http://www.behringer.com/Deq2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
How much?
Hi Paul,
I think the above are out of my price range.But,been thinking..... I.B.?I visited a web page earlier showing a pair of drivers on a manifold,face to face firing sideways to a slot,that could have been 3" x 12",do you see what I mean?This much agathered by glanceing at the pictures.It was from a dedicate I.B. forum.Maybe I could convince my partner,to allow the manifold to be under the bed,an opening in the lounge ceiling below,of guessing 3" x 12",woulnd't be so bad.I could always repair the hole if we moved home.There could be a way to hide this hole,if I put my mind to it. What do you think?
By the way,Thankyou for your time.Mike
Hi Paul,
I think the above are out of my price range.But,been thinking..... I.B.?I visited a web page earlier showing a pair of drivers on a manifold,face to face firing sideways to a slot,that could have been 3" x 12",do you see what I mean?This much agathered by glanceing at the pictures.It was from a dedicate I.B. forum.Maybe I could convince my partner,to allow the manifold to be under the bed,an opening in the lounge ceiling below,of guessing 3" x 12",woulnd't be so bad.I could always repair the hole if we moved home.There could be a way to hide this hole,if I put my mind to it. What do you think?
By the way,Thankyou for your time.Mike
Mike, go to the behringer website links and click on the price button for your area, then subtract say 15% as no one pays RRP for pro audio stuff.
The idea you mentioned could work enough to make it worthwhile. Mount the drivers magnet out and make the space between then as big as you can get away with. The air in between will create a resonance. What you will get will be a combination of monopole SPL and response with some of the characteristics of a "ripole" (do a search) regarding the air mass.
The idea you mentioned could work enough to make it worthwhile. Mount the drivers magnet out and make the space between then as big as you can get away with. The air in between will create a resonance. What you will get will be a combination of monopole SPL and response with some of the characteristics of a "ripole" (do a search) regarding the air mass.
Hi Paul
Hi Paul,I'm now going for a I.B. and I just wanted to thankyou for all your time and help.I'm hoping to start it this summer.Can I hit you with one more? Can I not do away with a box/manifold,and just place a baffle on the joists? I understand the best position,is to have the sub positioned behind the mains.I have central heating radiator right where the box would go. Not good for speaker or trying to heat the room.I was hoping the drivers could be mounted in the void between the lounge ceiling and bedroom(above)floor.I was hoping to have a ceiling cover,probably a cloth of sort with a wooden frame and a cast iron floor vent or whatever (type you can walk on) for the hole in the floor.
My Warmest thanks to you for your help.Mike
Hi Paul,I'm now going for a I.B. and I just wanted to thankyou for all your time and help.I'm hoping to start it this summer.Can I hit you with one more? Can I not do away with a box/manifold,and just place a baffle on the joists? I understand the best position,is to have the sub positioned behind the mains.I have central heating radiator right where the box would go. Not good for speaker or trying to heat the room.I was hoping the drivers could be mounted in the void between the lounge ceiling and bedroom(above)floor.I was hoping to have a ceiling cover,probably a cloth of sort with a wooden frame and a cast iron floor vent or whatever (type you can walk on) for the hole in the floor.
My Warmest thanks to you for your help.Mike
Mike, if you have a central heating duct or any kind of duct it would be an easy solution IF you can be sure the duct won't be used for any other purpose!
A manifold is a good idea as it gives the drivers a firm mounting. You can't just put a driver on drywall.
Another solution: put a sub in a window (make sure the outside part is protected from weather).
It's a matter of finding the best compromise, a place that is
close to the mains and in a practical place with minimal or no damage to the room that will have to be fixed later. If you put it in the floor, put in a grate and put a rug on top or something to conceal.
A manifold is a good idea as it gives the drivers a firm mounting. You can't just put a driver on drywall.
Another solution: put a sub in a window (make sure the outside part is protected from weather).
It's a matter of finding the best compromise, a place that is
close to the mains and in a practical place with minimal or no damage to the room that will have to be fixed later. If you put it in the floor, put in a grate and put a rug on top or something to conceal.
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