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Old 16th January 2006, 01:55 PM   #1
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Location: Rijeka, Croatia
Default Which sub to use with fullrange drivers ?


Recently I finished backloaded horns with cheap 8" Beyma fullrangers - although I am very satisfied with bass (especially when I remember the price) - I feel that I need something for filling bottom octave - under 50-60 Hz there is almost no output on some songs

I know that my room is way to small for some serious low bass response (16m2), but I don't need under 20 Hz HT low extension , 30 hz will be fine for music that I listen , I think.

Due my small room - there is almost no space for sub, but my idea is to place sub under my horns - with such placement, sub can have this max. dimensions: 140cm X 50cm X 40cm (WxLxH).

I also know that placement of the sub has enormuous influence on bass reponse but this is only place I can think of...

My problem is - which sub enclosure to use?

I want tight bass response, well defined , with efficiency to match 96db/W horns - horn sub is of course out of the question unfortunately due the size issues, but I was thinking lately about TL construction - I heard that it has very well defined bass, without cabinet colorations and can go really deep.

I need few advices and some ideas , tnx in advance!
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Old 16th January 2006, 02:26 PM   #2
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Default Re: Which sub to use with fullrange drivers ?

Originally posted by Bubba Zanetti
with efficiency to match 96db/W horns

not a particularly good idea.
If your intending a passive c/o it will be very expensive and difficult around 60Hz.

So the presumption is the subs are seperately powered.
In this case efficiency does not need to match, only maximum output level.

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Old 16th January 2006, 03:54 PM   #3
owdi is offline owdi  United States
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It's easier to get loud and low in a small room than a big room. Also, you don't need to worry about matching the efficiency of your horns since the subwoofer will be active.

With a 16m2 room and a 140cm X 50cm X 40cm box you can easily get flat in room response down to 20hz at 110db, using dual 15" drivers in a sealed box.

I recommend dual drivers, facing opposite directions, to minimize box vibration/cancelation. Since you only need to go up to 60hz, standing waves are not an issue.

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Old 16th January 2006, 04:14 PM   #4
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cheap 8" Beyma fullrangers
My suggestion would be to use Beyma woofers suitable for subs. And actively power them with a seperate plate amp with variable crossover.
If you can see the speaker cone move...it's not hifi.
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Old 16th January 2006, 05:04 PM   #5
chops is offline chops  United States
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Given those dimensions, you can easily build an enclosure almost 9.5 cu.ft (269 liters). That's a pretty huge enclosure for any sub. Obviously you can also go smaller.

If you can get them, I would suggest the Dayton 15DVC. It's rated at 93dB with both coils and can produce some seriously low bass, either sealed or ported.

Dayton 15DVC
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Old 16th January 2006, 06:20 PM   #6
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First tnx all for fast reply,

2 sreten:

Sorry, I forgot to mention that sub will be active with low pass filter .
I will use probably some high power D class kit module or made some DIY sub amp in AB class - I wrote "to match efficiency" but I was in fact thinking about matching output levels.

2 owdi:

Very interesting idea - but how should I mount drivers-one obviously must be with magnet facing outside - my box must be flat from outside because floorstanders must go on top, front & back side have to be also flat ? Do you have some pics or links?

Or maybe I'm thinking about some different setup then you

2 Bas Horneman:

I was thinking the same:Beyma PA drivers will probably blend very well with high efficiency fullrangers - I like large dynamics that PA drivers can provide , but unfortunately there is no Beyma dealer in Croatia at the moment - but maybe I can use some other 15" PA bass drivers intead- there is on example P.audio dealer in my town - can I use something like their C15-400B :

- 15" driver.
- 98dB efficiency,
- freq.response from 30 Hz,
- 400W nominal power etc.

But resonant frequency for C15-400B seems a bit high to use it as proper home sub, can that be solved with active crossover to sound OK in my smallish room ?

My thinking is that sealed box will blend better with horns then bass reflex box due better transient response - definition and tightness are most important to me , much more then actually achieve 110dB on 20Hz (but if it's possible-why not), sub must sound very fast and accurate, I don't want that after huge work needed to finish large box boomy bass spoil everything...

And should I use PA drivers or ordinary home sub driver?

My heart is now beating for PA drivers, after I know what cheap Beyma PA fullranger can do in proper box

2 chops:

Unfortunately very difficult driver to find right here, but do you have some suggestions for some similar european drivers ? If box can be made smaller, of corse that's even better, feel free to add some ideas !
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Old 16th January 2006, 06:58 PM   #7
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Old 19th January 2006, 11:47 AM   #8
kepa1 is offline kepa1  France
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I'd stick to Beyma too, a 12LX60 or 12LW30 should be fine.

I personnally use the 10LW30 as a (sub)woofer to match fostex 4" fullrangers. It reaches 40hz at 0db even in a 20 liters box (maybe the room modes help!).

The 10" is amplified with a classD amp and the results are very satisfactory, the bass is fast, not boomy at all.

I suggest you try some German dealers, I'm sure they'll send drivers to Croatia. Ask for their names if you don't know any.

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Old 20th January 2006, 01:20 AM   #9
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2 kepa1:

Tnx for ideas- I'll throw drivers that you mentioned in Win ISD to see how will they perform in sealed box of my needed dimensions.

0db on 40 Hz - that sub goes 30 hz -3dB without problems - that's exactly what I need.

And all that with 10LW30 - that's 10" driver in 20L box if I am correct , that's great - can you tell me more abot your sub box, your room size & your fullrange speakers ? Maybe some pics?

What is your amp power - you must have some heavy active equalization except low pass filter to get such response in 20L box - is that correct?

About Beyma speaker ordering -

I have some interesting story, maybe is little OT, but I just haved to write this:

I send couple of times last year some e-mails about ordering speakers to Beyma dealer in Italy, but they never replied , so I tried to order directly from Spain but they kindly directed me to Beyma dealer for Eastern Europe.

Director of that firm e-mailed me that he have momentarily spekers that I wanted (8AG/N) and that he can bring it to me in Croatia in his car as he is going on 14-day vacation in Croatia that summer

And all that for the funny price of 20 Euro per speaker-how can I say no...
Anyway , he said that shipping speakers from Poland to Croatia is very very expensive , much much more then value of speakers...

Kepa1, if you have some e-mail adresses of German Beyma dealers please send me , I'll be very thankful, if shipping isn't too much for few drivers maybe I'll order from them.
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Old 20th January 2006, 08:30 AM   #10
kepa1 is offline kepa1  France
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Hello Bubba,

That's quite a lot to answer to but I'll try. First, I wonder what's wrong with Croatia, I mean it's so close to Germany, delivery should not be so big problem?

I went to visit Croatia last summer and French car renters wouldn't let me take one their cars because I was going to Croatia. I need to say it's a very nice country and very peaceful too. + Girls are so beautiful there

Ok, let's go back to speakers; here is a couple of pics:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

The satellites are ACR FE103s (Swiss made Fostex), I now use a DCX2496 to XO and EQ the speakers:
-10LW30 from 35 to 100hz
-FE103s from 70hz

The 10" (in Bass reflex design) gives a nice peak at the resonant frequency but then it drops and peaks again at about 70hz. I measured it with an ECM8000 mike (no EQ) in my little 13m² room (you may have different results in yours). Soon I'll add a second sub and redo 35 liters enclosurs to get a flatter response in the bass region and also be able to cut them at 150 or 200hz.

It was previously in a sealed box but the bass response was not that depp...

Since you use 8" as satellites, I wonder if you could use a 12" instead or even a 15", they need bigger boxes but offer more air diplacement. Furthemore, the 12LX60 or 15LX60 are dedicated to sub bass, whereas the LW series plays the midrange too. And did you consider a horn sub, you need room for these but it should match your existing equipement?

As for the amp, it's a plate I made from a UCD180 module, very good for the bass. You could as well buy an Hypex amp module which use the same amplifier and has integrated active XO.

Last, here is a couple of German dealers that come to my mind:
- Musician gear (i think long delays)
- Thomman (a major one)
- Lsv-achenbach (bought them the other 10LW30)

BTW, if you go for the 10", ask for the newest 10LW30/N.

Hope you'll find your way...

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