Tumult Subwoofer PA box designs?

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hi im new

i was looking into getting 4 15" adire audio tumult subs (two in each box)
right now im using 2 12" shiva mk2 subwoofers in a custom 4th oder bandpass box. iv been using this 4 years now and im still impressed with the performance but i also use it for small events at times and the sound levels varies in the sence that sometimes its sounds o.k but most times the speakers are running at its max and does not seem loud at all. so i am looking to upgrade to the tumult.

at one time i used my existing subs at a boat party with another guys system and i could barly hear my subs, which were completely drowned out by his single active makie 15" sub (dont know what model) my subs are very loud in certain rooms but just dont seem that great now. iv looked into the way PA bassbins are designed to see what may if any would be best suited for the tumult subs but i cant decide on a design.

my main question is what subwoofer enclosure would suit best for a loud, deep powerfull sound that without losing too much musical definition but most importantly have serious impact?

and also are there any advantages over the way PA style speakers are designed compaired to typical sealed, ported reflex designed boxes?
subdesign.jpg

iv drawn up a rough quick idea of a design usiing caracteristics of a bandpass, ported rexflex and a passive radiator, do u think there is any benefit from doing this?

thanks for any help
 
4 Tumults will have serious low bass, IMO I would use simple bass reflex boxes. You would need several passive radiators to follow 4 Tumults so the price will be quite high.

95Honda is right, if it's only for PA, you might want to look elsewhere with drivers with extreme sensivity/efficiency.
 
i could barly hear my subs, which were completely drowned out by his single active makie 15" sub
Both the Shiva and Tumult are optimised for low frequency response.

The Mackie 15" most likely didn't do much below 40 - 50 Hz. But optimised for 50 - 200 Hz it will give the same output in that frequency band as a Shiva or Tumult would with 4 up to even 10 times the amount of power the Mackie needs.

Below 40 -50 Hz the output of the Mackie drops like a rock, while a Tumult doesn't mind hitting 20 Hz before roll off.

If you would use 4 Tumults however, powered with a total of 6400 Wrms, you would have a PA system like nothing else. Hitting 126 dB at 20 Hz must be a scary experience. Not very usefull for many types of music because you wouldn't miss much with an lowcut at 40 Hz. Some types of music however would benefit from it greatly.

I thought about going that way before I started my PA but decided that 6400 Wrms is a lot of power, meaning a lot of amplifiers or/and a lot of money.

Two good 18" with each getting 900 Wrms will be louder from about 45 Hz and up than 4 Tumults powered with 6400 Wrms. Beneath 40 Hz the 2 x 18" would get blown away.

The 4 Tumults would need to be stacked together however. If you would place 2 Tumults a side instead of a centerstack of 4, you would need double the power (so 12800 Wrms) to keep the situation as stated above as it is.

Every doubling of loudspeakers stacked together will give you a 3 dB SPL-increase for free and another 3 dB because you can double the power. This means that by only placing the 4 Tumults together, you will get 6 dB extra (which will be the same as 4 times the power). Placing against a wall or in a corner will further increase the SPL-level. Outside however you would loose about 6 dB compared to use inside.

If you're still going for the Tumults (do it, do it ;)) best use a basreflex. If you just want to blow that 15" Mackie guy away next time use 15"or 18" PA-drivers, or go hornloaded.

Mvg Johan
 
hi

yes i was looking to use them mainly for PA, but also for home use too, as i have alot of room space to fill and i do like intense amounts of bass but with decent sound quality too, i did intend to use 2-3 PR's per sub bucause of the hight xmas on these drivers.

im chosing this subs because iv been impresses with all the other stuff from adire audio too, but if your suggesting another driver, is there anything out there better that is suited?
i really dont want to have to buy anymore subs for the next few years so i really want to build something that would blow most sub systems away

i intend to make these subs active also
 
It sounds like you plan to spend some money, If I were you I would check out these two drivers. I have used the 1808 (earlier version of the NRT 18-8) and heard the Mccauley 6174. These are about some of the top end 18" PA drivers. They are not cheap, but they are very heavy hitters in the low end arena. Not much out there in the way of PA drivers that can match these bad boys....

http://www.aurasound.com/proaudio/frameset2.html



http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/6174specs.html

The Mccauley site wasn't working, but this is a link to the parameters...
 
Rademakers said:

Low frequency-wise or SPL-wise?

Mvg Johan

both really, but mainly have a very high SPL output, ideally i would like to build something that has low cut off to around 25hz (-3db) or lower
i know this is very easly possible using bass reflex etc but im very interested in using a horn loaded design, i have a good in depth knowledge about bandpass, reflex enclosure designs, i know of horn designs and PA style stuff but my knowledge about them is limited.

iv been looking at a few sites about horn loaded and scoop designs but im a abit unsure as to which is the most efficient design and has a decent low end.

my ideal setup would me to have serious "heartpounding" bass, but still churn out very deep bass at a high SPL level too.
 
both really, but mainly have a very high SPL output, ideally i would like to build something that has low cut off to around 25hz (-3db) or lower
You know what you're asking? To get 25 Hz at (-3 dB) decent PA-level you need big cabinets and lots of them, then still it's low.

What does the average PA around there? How many cabs of what?

Mvg Johan
 
sorry, i didnt mean the system has to be able to play 25hz at PA levels
i meant i wanted it to play up to PA levels but have the ability to drop as low as 25Hz.
it doesnt have be like that specificaly that low, i would be happy if it could drop to 30Hz or 35 by using a efficient hornloaded design that is also very loud at other frequencies (say 45hz - 100 or so)

or im i asking too much using horn designs?
 
I think you need to separate 2 things - high efficiency high output midbass for PA use and LFE bass. Do you need to do both at the same level? If not then you should start with PA midbass with high efficiency and high output, then vented LFE subs. If you want to do both with the one sub then its ridiculously expensive with low efficiency drivers. You may be better to make a compromise and get 30 Hz with some lab horns, or some large vented cabs with 18" vented PA drivers.

Or if you want to divide up the two, then the Tumults would work fine for LFE HT stuff in vented boxes with PA woofers for the PA stuff.
 
riddlah:

That Mackie bass box that you heard sounded louder because the frequency range between 50Hz and 250Hz is actually the one that provides the feeling of loud bass. The amount of output required below 50Hz is actually quite low and a small roll-off below that frequency doesn't make any harm as long as it isn't too steep.

On the other hand, when 'rumble' frequencies in the 20Hz to 50Hz range dominate, the feeling is that the bass is lazy, punchless, and never loud enough. That's why those hi-fi drivers with heavy cones and voice coils designed to play 25Hz notes seem quite useless to me, since they feature efficiencies below 88dB/W (less than 0.4% of amplifier power is transferred to the air) and most of them start to roll off above 100-150Hz thus producing little or no midbass.

Note that power efficiency figures for direct radiator PA LF cabinets are usually between 2% and 4%.
 
i would be happy if it could drop to 30Hz or 35 by using a efficient hornloaded design that is also very loud at other frequencies (say 45hz - 100 or so)

In that case I would go for the already suggested designs like the X1 from Rog Mogale or the Labsub from TD. Both designs need to be used with (powerfull) kickbins or tops that can deliver the kick (like 15" or double 12") Some people use labs for HT.

I use my 18" PA subwoofers at home as well in several different designs, ranging from big, low tuned basreflex's (110 dB @ 20 Hz, halfspace) to a 500 ltr (18,3 cubic ft.) TL. The TL's are also suited for smaller parties. with decent low end. But placed in a 110 -150 ltr reflex, tuned at 40 - 50 Hz, powered with 1 kWrms they're nicer for bigger parties or outside use as well. Complemented with double 12" for 80 Hz and up.

and most of them start to roll off above 100-150Hz thus producing little or no midbass.

Most PA setups use true subwoofers up to about 80 -120 Hz, at that point you can either go to a kickbin or your tops. Midbass coming from such a subwoofer would sound horrible in most cases.

when 'rumble' frequencies in the 20Hz to 50Hz range dominate, the feeling is that the bass is lazy, punchless, and never loud enough

A sub needs to be used in a way that you don't notice it, till it's gone.

Sometimes it's solved by reversing phase tho.

Mvg Johan
 
I'll chime in on this one, I used to have a Tumult I tried to integrate into my EV pro audio system. I used a few boxes, sealed and ported. Of course sealed didn't do well at all, and ported was marginally better. I first tried it as a dedicated sub. The tops were EV Gladiator G115's (1" horn 60x40 + 15" woofer). Then I tried it to suppliment the low end- 2 EV SB180 subs (single 18" quasi scoop reverse woofer design), good down to approx 32 Hz useable. Using a 3 way Ashly XR2001 crossover, I powered it with a Crown Macro-Tech 5000Vz.

On its own, the Tumult just didn't integrate well with the top speakers at all. Its low efficiency created a very "rumbly" style bass, not the punchy bass you usually get out of a PA system.

Supplimenting the SB180's was hardly noticeable, maybe because I only had one woofer vs the 2 18's which played low enough.

I can see perhaps it being used as a driver for a horn loaded setup, like the Labsub, where a low efficiency driver, that has a small compression chamber can be made very loud. I cant imagine how heavy that thing would be though.
 
thanks, u peeps have given me some usefull advise

but it has opened up my options more.

sounds to me like the best combination is really to use the tempest in 2 bass reflex enclosures for the very deep stuff (which i like)

and combine with 2 horn loaded subs using maybe using smaller drivers like a 12" PA in maybe a LABhorn enclosure, for the SPL mid bass 50hz upwards (also very essentual)


But iv heard using a combination of these two would possibly result in a cancellation of bass at certain frequencies and also mast likely remain out of phase, can someone enlighten me on this issue?

cost of the driver also is not really an issue as long it has the performance to match, as i said before i want to build something real serious without having to stack tons of subs together
 
riddlah said:
thanks, u peeps have given me some usefull advise

but it has opened up my options more.

sounds to me like the best combination is really to use the tempest in 2 bass reflex enclosures for the very deep stuff (which i like)

and combine with 2 horn loaded subs using maybe using smaller drivers like a 12" PA in maybe a LABhorn enclosure, for the SPL mid bass 50hz upwards (also very essentual)


But iv heard using a combination of these two would possibly result in a cancellation of bass at certain frequencies and also mast likely remain out of phase, can someone enlighten me on this issue?

cost of the driver also is not really an issue as long it has the performance to match, as i said before i want to build something real serious without having to stack tons of subs together
Operating them in different frequency ranges is a good start. They may not integrate,especially since youd need either physical delay or electrical delay to integrate the basshorn with the rest.

Using something like a CV 700litre bin which will provide a solid 50hz would be a good idea.
 
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