To all yankers:
YOu should all be yanked outa here!
Man what do you have to do to get some respect in this place
!
Some of the gentleman posting know their stuff. John does, as does RCW and Dave. They are not yankers. Nor am I ! Built more horns than most gents on this forum. R&D'ed fullrange drivers and back loaded horns for a couple of clients. By driver I mean the whole driver! If that makes me a yanker than yanker I am!
Mark
YOu should all be yanked outa here!
Man what do you have to do to get some respect in this place
!Some of the gentleman posting know their stuff. John does, as does RCW and Dave. They are not yankers. Nor am I ! Built more horns than most gents on this forum. R&D'ed fullrange drivers and back loaded horns for a couple of clients. By driver I mean the whole driver! If that makes me a yanker than yanker I am!
Mark
Probably not folded....
If your horn isnt so big that it cant fit through your door, then its not too big!
If you want to hear about some real testing eqiupment look at some of the stuff Tom Danley has done....
who is this Dr. Edgar anyway?
I think a good no comprimise horn could be built into an attic. The folding could be much less complex depending on the attic space itself, and size is probably not an issue(assuming a large attic). It couldnt be removed and moved somewhere else, but I'm sure you could get just about any flare rate and cutoff you desire.
re horns
I think it is now well established that below a particular frequency a horn acts just like a single ported bandpass box, and that if you want it to act as an acoustic transformer down to the lowest frequencies then it must be of the dimensions mentioned for the military application, and no amount of hand waving, or indeed using ones hand for other purposes will change it.
I always think that the bass horn fans in fact like the look mystique and idea of horns, but in thinking that this aesthetic appreciation is somehow not appropriate or manly try to put forth sound technical sounding reasons for horns, instead of stating the simple fact that it is the aesthtic and mystique of horns that attracts them.
Don Keele showed long ago that in terms of bass for space reflex loaded direct radiators with filter assistance win hands down, and no use of hands in whatever manner will change this.
The major trouble is that a box with a hole in lacks all of the glamour and all the other afformentioned properties possed by horns, thus horns will always win in these stakes, I just wish that sometimes horn lovers would come clean and admit thats the attraction.
I think it is now well established that below a particular frequency a horn acts just like a single ported bandpass box, and that if you want it to act as an acoustic transformer down to the lowest frequencies then it must be of the dimensions mentioned for the military application, and no amount of hand waving, or indeed using ones hand for other purposes will change it.
I always think that the bass horn fans in fact like the look mystique and idea of horns, but in thinking that this aesthetic appreciation is somehow not appropriate or manly try to put forth sound technical sounding reasons for horns, instead of stating the simple fact that it is the aesthtic and mystique of horns that attracts them.
Don Keele showed long ago that in terms of bass for space reflex loaded direct radiators with filter assistance win hands down, and no use of hands in whatever manner will change this.
The major trouble is that a box with a hole in lacks all of the glamour and all the other afformentioned properties possed by horns, thus horns will always win in these stakes, I just wish that sometimes horn lovers would come clean and admit thats the attraction.
Re: re horns
I'm sure in terms of simple frequency response it does win hands down (though I can't think of any reason why a horn system couldn't be filter assisted as well). But I suspect that there's more to horns than simple frequency response and that what attracts many to horns is more than just aesthetic and mystique.
I don't mind admitting that that's part of the attraction for me (being the holistic kind o' guy that I am), but not the entire reason. There's something more.
se
rcw said:
I'm sure in terms of simple frequency response it does win hands down (though I can't think of any reason why a horn system couldn't be filter assisted as well). But I suspect that there's more to horns than simple frequency response and that what attracts many to horns is more than just aesthetic and mystique.
I don't mind admitting that that's part of the attraction for me (being the holistic kind o' guy that I am), but not the entire reason. There's something more.
se
Re: re horns
I've never heard anything even come close to the horn rig I had in terms of ease of presentation, dynamic ability and the ability to present a realistic size and scope to the music. Never heard a ported box(es) of any size begin to equal their performance.
As for being aesthetic based, when I used my Khorns they blended in to the room quite well so that few people noticed them quite unlite a set of floor or standmounted speakers 5 feet out into the room. When the rig developed into what it was at the end, the 'big' boxes were a set of LABhorns, placed on stands so that they fired down and into the corner. They were painted (with a roller) flat white so they matched the walls. There were framed pictures hung on them and they looked like a large wall unit. The midbass looked like a box until you sat in front of it and noticed there was a flare inside it. The mid/high horn looked like a horn though, but wasn't that big (~400mm dia x 400 deep)
I miss my horns a lot, but I can't get them into my current house so I sold a lot of the flares and components off. My KEFs are fine and enjoyable, but sooooooo lacking ultimately compared to what I had. When I move back to my house (I moved to do the work that means something to me), I'll build another horn rig.
Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, in my opinion, it's a load of bollocks.rcw said:
I've never heard anything even come close to the horn rig I had in terms of ease of presentation, dynamic ability and the ability to present a realistic size and scope to the music. Never heard a ported box(es) of any size begin to equal their performance.
As for being aesthetic based, when I used my Khorns they blended in to the room quite well so that few people noticed them quite unlite a set of floor or standmounted speakers 5 feet out into the room. When the rig developed into what it was at the end, the 'big' boxes were a set of LABhorns, placed on stands so that they fired down and into the corner. They were painted (with a roller) flat white so they matched the walls. There were framed pictures hung on them and they looked like a large wall unit. The midbass looked like a box until you sat in front of it and noticed there was a flare inside it. The mid/high horn looked like a horn though, but wasn't that big (~400mm dia x 400 deep)
I miss my horns a lot, but I can't get them into my current house so I sold a lot of the flares and components off. My KEFs are fine and enjoyable, but sooooooo lacking ultimately compared to what I had. When I move back to my house (I moved to do the work that means something to me), I'll build another horn rig.
RCW : It isnt for the majority of laymen to decide that something is true simply because it seems to make sense,Id leave that to to the AES guys. But yes a BP4 does seem to approximate the horn below Fc. Have you seen the distortion measurements vs frequency here->
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sbk1/ssi.htm
Re DB keele,yes its true but if you cant afford multiple 18"s with appropriate EQ isntead of your single HT woofer on a massive horn its no use. (bearing in mind that we are talking HT not midbass)
You could just chuck the largest flare extender you can fit onto a labhorn size unit - FR can be worked out with hornresp.(single 18"/ 2 x 12"s or similar)
For HT I wouldnt have a cutoff any higher than 25hz or so. I wouldnt be expecting 16hz horn loaded.
http://www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49502&highlight=
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sbk1/ssi.htm
Re DB keele,yes its true but if you cant afford multiple 18"s with appropriate EQ isntead of your single HT woofer on a massive horn its no use. (bearing in mind that we are talking HT not midbass)
You could just chuck the largest flare extender you can fit onto a labhorn size unit - FR can be worked out with hornresp.(single 18"/ 2 x 12"s or similar)
For HT I wouldnt have a cutoff any higher than 25hz or so. I wouldnt be expecting 16hz horn loaded.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49502&highlight=
What can and can't be done with horns
Small size and low frequency output together cannot be accomplished with a horn. THat's a statement we all have to agree is true.
The statements about output below Fs are convienient for the point at which they are measured. That is below Fs. Above Fs a horn will produce more volume with less power input than any other box configuration period. That is part of the allure!
The other part is it's dynamic range. Granted a huge bank of Vented sub monkey coffins can be coaxed into submission with enough kilowatts to become dynamic. I have both done it and heard it. Frightening! But the volume of the boxes and the cost of the rig driving them is not negligable.
But a smaller complement of drivers with power orders of magnitude lower will outperform the monkey coffins if they are coupled to a horn. ( horse coffin ) ( have to be fair to monkeys ) The trade off is the size. The design limited bandwidth to is a definite tradeoff. ( allthough there are definite design limits to reflex designs to ) But the realistic punch and apparent limitless power is very alluring.
As someone who spent a good many years playing in the back row of an orchestra. I say that hands down a horn portrays the reproduced sound with the greater realism.
Food for thought
MArk
Small size and low frequency output together cannot be accomplished with a horn. THat's a statement we all have to agree is true.
The statements about output below Fs are convienient for the point at which they are measured. That is below Fs. Above Fs a horn will produce more volume with less power input than any other box configuration period. That is part of the allure!
The other part is it's dynamic range. Granted a huge bank of Vented sub monkey coffins can be coaxed into submission with enough kilowatts to become dynamic. I have both done it and heard it. Frightening! But the volume of the boxes and the cost of the rig driving them is not negligable.
But a smaller complement of drivers with power orders of magnitude lower will outperform the monkey coffins if they are coupled to a horn. ( horse coffin ) ( have to be fair to monkeys ) The trade off is the size. The design limited bandwidth to is a definite tradeoff. ( allthough there are definite design limits to reflex designs to ) But the realistic punch and apparent limitless power is very alluring.
As someone who spent a good many years playing in the back row of an orchestra. I say that hands down a horn portrays the reproduced sound with the greater realism.
Food for thought
MArk
Re: What can and can't be done with horns
> Small size and low frequency output together cannot be accomplished with a horn.
Well, it depends...
Lets take an infinite, open-air acoustical environment.
We have a cone, and we want to radiate sine soundwaves.
(The cone now just radiate in one direction for simplicity)
At a given frequency the efficiency of sound radiation depends
on the size of the cone. For a lower frequency a bigger cone
is ideal, cause a low freq sound means slow air-movements, and
therefore a lot of time to the air to escape far from the cone
in every direction. Therefore air will rather just move instead
of compression and pressure-variation (generating sound).
Increasing the frequency the radiation is getting even more directed,
cause for the air particulars its easier to radiate the sound in the
cone's axle, instead to propagate it all around the cone.
Now then, its clear that for great bass we need a cone as huge as possible.
But (and thats the point) in a closed place this work a bit different.
In this case we need more power to radiate, cause we must compress the air
in this place a bit. (The walls and the corners push back the waves...)
So there is an important thing, that peoples often forget:
Where do we want to achieve the bass improvements with our horn ?
Remark, that a BR enclosure can also help a lot in bass reproduction,
although it has just a little port. Now then, the are two extremity of
sound radiating:
- small area & big amplitude
- huge area & tiny amplitude
A panel-loudspeaker is rather the second type and a dynamic
speaker with coil and magnet is rather the first type.
With an average subwoofer speaker we have a finite power, and the speaker
alone can radiate low freqs with just a small efficiency.
Now with a horn we can make a transform between the two extremity above.
And we should do this too, cause in a closed air-space there is an optimum
horn-sizing for a given speaker. Not the horn with the biggest mouth is
definitely the optimum.
> Small size and low frequency output together cannot be accomplished with a horn.
Well, it depends...
Lets take an infinite, open-air acoustical environment.
We have a cone, and we want to radiate sine soundwaves.
(The cone now just radiate in one direction for simplicity)
At a given frequency the efficiency of sound radiation depends
on the size of the cone. For a lower frequency a bigger cone
is ideal, cause a low freq sound means slow air-movements, and
therefore a lot of time to the air to escape far from the cone
in every direction. Therefore air will rather just move instead
of compression and pressure-variation (generating sound).
Increasing the frequency the radiation is getting even more directed,
cause for the air particulars its easier to radiate the sound in the
cone's axle, instead to propagate it all around the cone.
Now then, its clear that for great bass we need a cone as huge as possible.
But (and thats the point) in a closed place this work a bit different.
In this case we need more power to radiate, cause we must compress the air
in this place a bit. (The walls and the corners push back the waves...)
So there is an important thing, that peoples often forget:
Where do we want to achieve the bass improvements with our horn ?
Remark, that a BR enclosure can also help a lot in bass reproduction,
although it has just a little port. Now then, the are two extremity of
sound radiating:
- small area & big amplitude
- huge area & tiny amplitude
A panel-loudspeaker is rather the second type and a dynamic
speaker with coil and magnet is rather the first type.
With an average subwoofer speaker we have a finite power, and the speaker
alone can radiate low freqs with just a small efficiency.
Now with a horn we can make a transform between the two extremity above.
And we should do this too, cause in a closed air-space there is an optimum
horn-sizing for a given speaker. Not the horn with the biggest mouth is
definitely the optimum.
Bass,
That's below the horn cutoff. The band pass cutoff can be much lower. This is also my point regarding using large chambered horns. For a sub all we need is a narrow bandwidth, eg 20hz to 80hz is just 2 octaves. If the lower end is really ported output with some loading, who cares as long as you get the extension.
That's below the horn cutoff. The band pass cutoff can be much lower. This is also my point regarding using large chambered horns. For a sub all we need is a narrow bandwidth, eg 20hz to 80hz is just 2 octaves. If the lower end is really ported output with some loading, who cares as long as you get the extension.
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