hey everybody. im putting together my first HT system and i got some really nice speakers. but now have no money left for the sub. so this is the place i belong too and thankfully found the site today. people here seem really educated and nice so i will expect alot of help, hopefully. i have about $300 left for the sub and the quality im looking for, i wont be able to buy any sub from paradigm, nht, m&k, etc...im 60% music, 40% HT.
so i want to deisgn a single driver or maybe 2 if possible. i've reasearched and found out that people here seem to like peerless and adire. im looking for all out sound quality. it should be little loud but i wanna take mercy on the neighbors. i will get a plate amp from Parts Express for around 150. so that leaves me with about 150 for the woofer.
also i need help on design aspects.
1. like what kind of dimnesions (WxHxL)
2. where should i place the flare port
3. should i fire the driver downward or forward?
and any other important information u guys think i should take in consideration. any help will be taken into consideration. thanx.
so i want to deisgn a single driver or maybe 2 if possible. i've reasearched and found out that people here seem to like peerless and adire. im looking for all out sound quality. it should be little loud but i wanna take mercy on the neighbors. i will get a plate amp from Parts Express for around 150. so that leaves me with about 150 for the woofer.
also i need help on design aspects.
1. like what kind of dimnesions (WxHxL)
2. where should i place the flare port
3. should i fire the driver downward or forward?
and any other important information u guys think i should take in consideration. any help will be taken into consideration. thanx.
Well, it is kind of hard to answer your questions on box dimensions, orientation, etc. without knowing what driver we are talking about. All these things are dependent on the driver. You might cruise over to www.adireaudio.com and look at some of the drivers. A lot of people have been very happy with Ascendant Audio's stuff (www.ascendantaudio.com). Partsexpress.com handles Peerless drivers. When you decide on a driver, then box details can be worked out.
Adire Audio's website has a lot of information in the technical section. They provide a formula for determining whether a given driver can be loaded in a downward facing enclosure, as well as a lot of tutorial stuff. Also, Adire has several suggested enclosure designs for many of their subs (as does Ascendant Audio and many others).
www.linkwitzlab.com has a sealed Peerless design.
P.S. One important consideration: How big do you want it?
Adire Audio's website has a lot of information in the technical section. They provide a formula for determining whether a given driver can be loaded in a downward facing enclosure, as well as a lot of tutorial stuff. Also, Adire has several suggested enclosure designs for many of their subs (as does Ascendant Audio and many others).
www.linkwitzlab.com has a sealed Peerless design.
P.S. One important consideration: How big do you want it?
thanx raoul. i appreciate that info. im thinking of going with either 12" or 10" woofer. box size doesnt matter really because i have enough room. i need suggestions on what kind of woofer should i use because i've only dealt with car subs till now, have no experience with HT subs. so u all are experienced and are experts at this so please give me recommendations. thanx.
I've had great experiences with Adire, Peerless and Ascendant Audio drivers. Choose a driver that best suits your desired specifications and check out their sites about recommended enclosures. Once you've chosen a driver, some folks here can give experiences and/or ideas about enclosures as well.
IMO Go in just about any DIY driver direction and you'll be way ahead of mass produced subs.
IMO Go in just about any DIY driver direction and you'll be way ahead of mass produced subs.
here is a link to my front speaker specs.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=ps...lectronics.com/descriptions/PSB Image 4T.html
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=ps...lectronics.com/descriptions/PSB Image 4T.html
Start here:
Build your own 10" subwoofer, a detailed how-to
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1789/
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Build your own 10" subwoofer, a detailed how-to
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1789/
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
If size is not a factor, I would think that a vented Adire Shiva (or something similar) might be a better fit for JiggaD369's mains. I just ran a cursory model on WinISD and the Shiva can achieve about 109+dB down to the mid-20's with a 150W input. Probably a good match for the PSBs, which are rated at 89dB and accept up to 150W, which should achieve just over 110dB.
I'm going to steal from one of simon5's posts in another thread. Here is Adire's Shiva paper:
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/adire_shiva/ventedshiva.pdf
Of particular interest is page 8, where different box alignments responses are presented with room gain calculated. Note that the EBS box is a formidable structure at about five cubic feet. Nice response, though. Your results will probably vary due to the size of your room. The Shiva might be hard to find due to a reshuffling at Adire, but I believe it sells for about $125, which leaves you a little bit of reserve for wood.
The Ascendant Atlas 12 also looks nice, but costs a bit more at $160.
I don't know if you are an eBay guy, but Parts Express has been selling subwoofer plate amps (among other things) under the username: www.partsexpress . You might be able to pick up a deal if you are vigilant. Also, Rythmik Audio sells an improved version of the Parts Express plate amp here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/nonservo_product.htm
How big is your room?
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/adire_shiva/ventedshiva.pdf
Of particular interest is page 8, where different box alignments responses are presented with room gain calculated. Note that the EBS box is a formidable structure at about five cubic feet. Nice response, though. Your results will probably vary due to the size of your room. The Shiva might be hard to find due to a reshuffling at Adire, but I believe it sells for about $125, which leaves you a little bit of reserve for wood.
The Ascendant Atlas 12 also looks nice, but costs a bit more at $160.
I don't know if you are an eBay guy, but Parts Express has been selling subwoofer plate amps (among other things) under the username: www.partsexpress . You might be able to pick up a deal if you are vigilant. Also, Rythmik Audio sells an improved version of the Parts Express plate amp here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/nonservo_product.htm
How big is your room?
im looking for all SQ. boominess and loudness is not a factor if that matters. the 5 cubic ft box looks quite hard to make because i dont have the required tools. is there a basic vented box that i can make where the driver would go in the front and the vent in the back or something similar, which would be easier to make? i can give the EBS box a try but a alt. method would be ok too.
The Ascendant Audio Atlas 12 is only 20$ more at 145$.
At 160$, it's the Ascendant Audio Atlas 15.
If you want a nice box, you need to brace it well, like they did in the Shiva paper. You don't need big tools to build this, only a circular saw, a jigsaw, sandpaper and patience. If you don't like the downfiring design, you can flip the box on the side and build no legs. I have to admit that the downfiring design is really nice, it looks like furniture, it's made to go in a corner. You could use it as a TV stand, corner table or something. By the way, it's very loud and the sound quality is awesome if you take your time to build the box well.
I recommend using the 250W Rythmic Audio amplifier, I used this in the enclosure mentioned above. You don't need more power because the subwoofer is playing at the excursion limit. Then you buy a 4 inch diameter port.
125$ + 119$ + 14$ or 145$ + 119$ + 14$ if you use the Atlas 12 (which I think is slightly better).
If you want the easy way out, consider building a small sealed box, it will be good for music, but for HT forget about it.
At 160$, it's the Ascendant Audio Atlas 15.
If you want a nice box, you need to brace it well, like they did in the Shiva paper. You don't need big tools to build this, only a circular saw, a jigsaw, sandpaper and patience. If you don't like the downfiring design, you can flip the box on the side and build no legs. I have to admit that the downfiring design is really nice, it looks like furniture, it's made to go in a corner. You could use it as a TV stand, corner table or something. By the way, it's very loud and the sound quality is awesome if you take your time to build the box well.
I recommend using the 250W Rythmic Audio amplifier, I used this in the enclosure mentioned above. You don't need more power because the subwoofer is playing at the excursion limit. Then you buy a 4 inch diameter port.
125$ + 119$ + 14$ or 145$ + 119$ + 14$ if you use the Atlas 12 (which I think is slightly better).
If you want the easy way out, consider building a small sealed box, it will be good for music, but for HT forget about it.
Thanks simon5, I stand corrected: $145.00USD for the Atlas 12. With XBL^2, no less.
JiggaD369, the nice thing about the big EBS design is that it hides the tuning frequency below audible limits. The result is a low group delay within the audible spectrum, producing a very musical sub (read: high SQ). It also allows for very low extension, which is also very good, of course. The obvious trade off is the enclosure's very large size.
As to loudness (see my previous post with comments on SPL), my concern was to find a SPL match to your front speakers for good sub integration.
Your mains have fairly good low end extension, so you will presumably want a sub that can at least reach down into the low 20's. Though most music won't hit in the low 20's, home theater will. Also, a low tuning never hurts music reproduction when feasible. Besides, it is pretty neat to hear the heartbeat in the beginning of Darkside of the Moon with clear and powerful extension into the 20's. The song actually starts sooner than I ever knew before I built a sub.
There are other methods of bracing that may be easier than the suggested Adire bracing method. I believe JL Audio suggest a technique of using triangular corner braces. Although it still requires cutting boards, the braces do not require a uniform tolerance/ width.
If the sheer size of the EBS enclosure is too large for your tastes, say so. Completely understandable. But if the construction is the only thing that worries you, well, maybe we can find an easier method for bracing, etc. As simon5 said, the box can be disguised as furniture. Home Depot sells primed MDF molding, which could be run around the edges to disguise the box as a hutch or something. Our Home Depot even has a miter saw that is provided for in-store cuts by customers. As simon5 suggests, you can use it as a TV stand.
The Adire Shiva performs better in a downfiring position, according to Adire. I am not sure front firing box will be easier to build. I would guess the Atlas 12 will fit in a similar box.
What power tools do you/ your friends have? Routers and table saws are very good things.
JiggaD369, the nice thing about the big EBS design is that it hides the tuning frequency below audible limits. The result is a low group delay within the audible spectrum, producing a very musical sub (read: high SQ). It also allows for very low extension, which is also very good, of course. The obvious trade off is the enclosure's very large size.
As to loudness (see my previous post with comments on SPL), my concern was to find a SPL match to your front speakers for good sub integration.
Your mains have fairly good low end extension, so you will presumably want a sub that can at least reach down into the low 20's. Though most music won't hit in the low 20's, home theater will. Also, a low tuning never hurts music reproduction when feasible. Besides, it is pretty neat to hear the heartbeat in the beginning of Darkside of the Moon with clear and powerful extension into the 20's. The song actually starts sooner than I ever knew before I built a sub.
There are other methods of bracing that may be easier than the suggested Adire bracing method. I believe JL Audio suggest a technique of using triangular corner braces. Although it still requires cutting boards, the braces do not require a uniform tolerance/ width.
If the sheer size of the EBS enclosure is too large for your tastes, say so. Completely understandable. But if the construction is the only thing that worries you, well, maybe we can find an easier method for bracing, etc. As simon5 said, the box can be disguised as furniture. Home Depot sells primed MDF molding, which could be run around the edges to disguise the box as a hutch or something. Our Home Depot even has a miter saw that is provided for in-store cuts by customers. As simon5 suggests, you can use it as a TV stand.
The Adire Shiva performs better in a downfiring position, according to Adire. I am not sure front firing box will be easier to build. I would guess the Atlas 12 will fit in a similar box.
What power tools do you/ your friends have? Routers and table saws are very good things.
i guess i can go with the EBS box. looked at the structure of the box very carefully (1 hour lol!). but the brace are not that difficult except the big one where you have to cut out a rectangle leaving 1" legs on both side...difficult to cut because once u cut both sides, its not easy to cut the top part, only thing that would work would be jigsaw but wont be staright. other than that, looks pretty staright forward. i think i can get everything cut at home depot or even better now...lowes! as for construction of the box..liquid nails in the inside and outside edges should do the trick. one important question i wanna ask is, is it better to leave the legs out and put spikes or should i use legs and attach a plate below the legs for cosometic resons?
im still sonfused on the part of mounting the plate amp though. the design shows no mentioning of where to place the amp? or do i have to use a external amp? how do i mount the plate amp in the ESB? or i cant at all?
as for the driver, i still dont know which one. i can get the Shiva MKIV for 125 but Atlas seems to be the favorite. which driver would be best under $150?
thanx guys for all of your input. really appreciate it.
im still sonfused on the part of mounting the plate amp though. the design shows no mentioning of where to place the amp? or do i have to use a external amp? how do i mount the plate amp in the ESB? or i cant at all?
as for the driver, i still dont know which one. i can get the Shiva MKIV for 125 but Atlas seems to be the favorite. which driver would be best under $150?
thanx guys for all of your input. really appreciate it.
The best under 150$, I guess it would be the Atlas 12.
The plate amp, you can look carefully in the plan and find a place to put it. I managed to put it on one side.
For the legs, you can substitute something if you want to, but keep the length they said to use.
Don't use too small spikes because the subwoofer will weight at least 75$.
What are you talking about when you said the brace with 1 inch legs on each side?????
The plate amp, you can look carefully in the plan and find a place to put it. I managed to put it on one side.
For the legs, you can substitute something if you want to, but keep the length they said to use.
Don't use too small spikes because the subwoofer will weight at least 75$.
What are you talking about when you said the brace with 1 inch legs on each side?????
I'm not sure which portion of the brace concerns you, but the most important thing is that you get the dimensions of the braces, sides, etc. a consistent width/ height and square.
A little word of warning: My experience with Home Depot is that their cuts are not exactly accurate. The accuracy is usually within a 1/4" - 1/2" or so. Also, the panel saws that H.D. use will not necessarily make a square cut. However, it is possible to get these in-store cuts to work out.
I would suggest first impressing the importance of an accurate cut to the sales associate. Also, sketch a picture of how you would like the sheet of plywood cut. I would suggest running a 22.5" cut down the length of one side of the sheet. I would then have them zap off a 21" width down the length of the other side. Further cuts should probably be made with your jig saw, unless you are confident that the associate can accurately repeat a cut (again, something that I have not experienced at Home Depot). If cutting by jigsaw, measure carefully and mark clear and accurate lines on your boards. I would try it like this:
From the 22.5" (x 96") side you should be able to cut:
.Front and back panels (x2)
.Top and bottom panels (x2)
.Mid brace (x1)
Form the 21" (x96") side you should be able to cut:
.Side panels, front to back braces (x4)
.Side to front-to-back-brace braces (x1 or x2 depending on kerf of blade and straightness of cut)
You will probably want to double check my figures. I would also suggest you use a void free plywood over MDF due to weight and ease of cutting. My jigsaw doesn't like to cut MDF, and the dust is horrible.
As for the legs, well, it is important that the sub is elevated several inches above the floor for proper operation. If you want spikes, make sure they are at least as tall as the legs they are replacing, or make up the difference by attaching the spikes to the bottom of shortened legs (I am staring at a Velodyne that uses this approach).
I will try to model the Atlas 12 in WinISD tomorrow and see how it looks in this box. All other things being equal, I think the Atlas will be more accurate. And yes, its hella cool looking. The Atlas may push the total over the $300 design budget, though.
Lemme know if I missed something.
Do you have a receiver or preamp with a built in subwoofer crossover? If so, what is the crossover frequency?
A little word of warning: My experience with Home Depot is that their cuts are not exactly accurate. The accuracy is usually within a 1/4" - 1/2" or so. Also, the panel saws that H.D. use will not necessarily make a square cut. However, it is possible to get these in-store cuts to work out.
I would suggest first impressing the importance of an accurate cut to the sales associate. Also, sketch a picture of how you would like the sheet of plywood cut. I would suggest running a 22.5" cut down the length of one side of the sheet. I would then have them zap off a 21" width down the length of the other side. Further cuts should probably be made with your jig saw, unless you are confident that the associate can accurately repeat a cut (again, something that I have not experienced at Home Depot). If cutting by jigsaw, measure carefully and mark clear and accurate lines on your boards. I would try it like this:
From the 22.5" (x 96") side you should be able to cut:
.Front and back panels (x2)
.Top and bottom panels (x2)
.Mid brace (x1)
Form the 21" (x96") side you should be able to cut:
.Side panels, front to back braces (x4)
.Side to front-to-back-brace braces (x1 or x2 depending on kerf of blade and straightness of cut)
You will probably want to double check my figures. I would also suggest you use a void free plywood over MDF due to weight and ease of cutting. My jigsaw doesn't like to cut MDF, and the dust is horrible.
As for the legs, well, it is important that the sub is elevated several inches above the floor for proper operation. If you want spikes, make sure they are at least as tall as the legs they are replacing, or make up the difference by attaching the spikes to the bottom of shortened legs (I am staring at a Velodyne that uses this approach).
I will try to model the Atlas 12 in WinISD tomorrow and see how it looks in this box. All other things being equal, I think the Atlas will be more accurate. And yes, its hella cool looking. The Atlas may push the total over the $300 design budget, though.
Lemme know if I missed something.
Do you have a receiver or preamp with a built in subwoofer crossover? If so, what is the crossover frequency?
the panel im reffering to is the Front-to-Back brace where you have to cut the 7.5inx6.25in rectangle on the bottom. i know you can run a circular saw to get the two 6.25in cuts but ill have top cut the 7.5in side with a jigsaw which wont give me a good staright edge.
but anyways, one other question i wanted to throw out there was should i use MDF or plywood? because Raoul reffered to plywood i think the the previous post but in the White Paper, it says MDF.
and if i do use MDF, after the box has been constructed, how should i finish it? lay another layer of wood on sides and top without screws and then cover it with veneer? or paint it?
but anyways, one other question i wanted to throw out there was should i use MDF or plywood? because Raoul reffered to plywood i think the the previous post but in the White Paper, it says MDF.
and if i do use MDF, after the box has been constructed, how should i finish it? lay another layer of wood on sides and top without screws and then cover it with veneer? or paint it?
OK, I think I got it. You are talking about the cutouts for the driver, right? I think the main thing is to cut the parameter out as accurately as possible. Cut the holes and make sure the drive fits and that the other braces match up, but remember that this brace will not be seen. Minor imperfections should not matter to much in this circumstance.
MDF vs. plywood: there are a lot of threads around here that discuss this. The main points that I remember are that plywood is stiffer and MDF may have better damping qualities. Although plywood can possibly resonant, any resonance should occur above a subwoofer's operating range. MDF is a lot heavier than plywood, which can be good and bad. MDF can be machined with a router easily. Plywood cuts easier with a saw. MDF dust is AWFUL!
You are correct about the suggestion in the white paper, of course. This is suprising, as Dan Wiggins (Adire big chief guy) has often advocated plywood on this forum and in several of his other papers. Either should work fine for this application.
Either one of your finishing methods should work fine. Make sure that you sand the edges, etc. flush (a flush cut bit on a router is really handy) before you paint/ veneer.
MDF vs. plywood: there are a lot of threads around here that discuss this. The main points that I remember are that plywood is stiffer and MDF may have better damping qualities. Although plywood can possibly resonant, any resonance should occur above a subwoofer's operating range. MDF is a lot heavier than plywood, which can be good and bad. MDF can be machined with a router easily. Plywood cuts easier with a saw. MDF dust is AWFUL!
You are correct about the suggestion in the white paper, of course. This is suprising, as Dan Wiggins (Adire big chief guy) has often advocated plywood on this forum and in several of his other papers. Either should work fine for this application.
Either one of your finishing methods should work fine. Make sure that you sand the edges, etc. flush (a flush cut bit on a router is really handy) before you paint/ veneer.
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