I have recently finished my first diy project, a pair of Mezzo Proteus (designed by Tony Gee), and I'm very pleased with the overall result. However, in some situations I find the bass somewhat weak (like when playing heavy rock). I'm now planing on building an active sub to augment the low bass. I'm looking for a musical subwoofer, fast and true, no boom box. Sure, it will work over time as an HT-subwoofer but the important thing is to make this sub work well when playing music.
At this early point I'm thinking closed box and a stiff cone driver. The Seas L26 seems nice, stiff alu-cone, 20 Hz fs, large 3 kg magnet, should work well in a closed box of about 40-50 liters with a little EQ-ing. Fit my budget well at $110. Many people seems to be using the XLS-10, but as far as the specs go I can't see why the more expensive Peerless driver is a better choice.
I would appreciate any thoughts you might have regarding this design. I especially need help in picking an amplifier. Amplifier budget is set at around 150 euro ($200). So far I have looked at the Hypex class-D DS1.2, Hypex HS80, various Parts Express class-AB sub amps ... I not looking to blow things away with this sub, simply a high quality bass att normal listening levels. For the money I'm about to spend, should I go low power class-D or higher power class-AB?
M.A.
At this early point I'm thinking closed box and a stiff cone driver. The Seas L26 seems nice, stiff alu-cone, 20 Hz fs, large 3 kg magnet, should work well in a closed box of about 40-50 liters with a little EQ-ing. Fit my budget well at $110. Many people seems to be using the XLS-10, but as far as the specs go I can't see why the more expensive Peerless driver is a better choice.
I would appreciate any thoughts you might have regarding this design. I especially need help in picking an amplifier. Amplifier budget is set at around 150 euro ($200). So far I have looked at the Hypex class-D DS1.2, Hypex HS80, various Parts Express class-AB sub amps ... I not looking to blow things away with this sub, simply a high quality bass att normal listening levels. For the money I'm about to spend, should I go low power class-D or higher power class-AB?
M.A.
For 110$ I would look somewhere else than in a 7 mm Xmax subwoofer driver...
For the amplifier, check the distortion caracteristics, I prefer a high power class AB that will have less distortion at low volumes so very musical but it got the power if you need it in HT.
If you absolutely want to stay with Seas, have a look at this one... Seas W26FX001
For the amplifier, check the distortion caracteristics, I prefer a high power class AB that will have less distortion at low volumes so very musical but it got the power if you need it in HT.
If you absolutely want to stay with Seas, have a look at this one... Seas W26FX001
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To me it seems the L26/W26 would make great woofers in a 3 or 4 way. But it's a limited as a subwoofer in that it only has 7mm xmax.
As a subwoofer, the XLS is well liked for it's low distortion, build quality, and competitive pricing. But it's T/S parameters means it best used in small PR boxes.
But at this point in time, if you want a 10" sealed sub, why not wait for the XXLS. The one to look out for is the 830843- 10" XXLS suited for sealed boxes.
They're on their way from Denmark even for poor isolated Australians like myself, so I would expect them to be readily available wordwide in the next coupld of months....
As a subwoofer, the XLS is well liked for it's low distortion, build quality, and competitive pricing. But it's T/S parameters means it best used in small PR boxes.
But at this point in time, if you want a 10" sealed sub, why not wait for the XXLS. The one to look out for is the 830843- 10" XXLS suited for sealed boxes.
They're on their way from Denmark even for poor isolated Australians like myself, so I would expect them to be readily available wordwide in the next coupld of months....
Hmm, must admit that I have made somewhat of a newbee mistake. Read linear excursion 14 mm in the specs for the Seas L26RFX/P and compared that to the 12.5 mm X-max for the XLS-10 !!!
Would a XLS or XXLS driver be fast and accurate enough for a high quality music sub? Any other suggestions regarding sub drivers with stiff cones (alu?) that might work well in a closed box?
M.A.
Would a XLS or XXLS driver be fast and accurate enough for a high quality music sub? Any other suggestions regarding sub drivers with stiff cones (alu?) that might work well in a closed box?
M.A.
Yes the Peerless can be a high quality music sub.
Btw, there's no fast sub.
To have the best musical subwoofer, you only need to put it in a sealed box. You can use almost any subwoofer driver.
BTW, I didn't list the good driver, sorry, I wanted to list the Seas SW250 with 22 mm p-p so 11 mm Xmax.
Peerless is a good choice, or Adire Audio, or Stryke Audio, or Ascendant Audio, or if you buy things at PartsExpress, you might want to look at Dayton.
The thing that will help you choose is that some subwoofer drivers need a big sealed box, and some others don't need that.
Btw, there's no fast sub.
To have the best musical subwoofer, you only need to put it in a sealed box. You can use almost any subwoofer driver.
BTW, I didn't list the good driver, sorry, I wanted to list the Seas SW250 with 22 mm p-p so 11 mm Xmax.
Peerless is a good choice, or Adire Audio, or Stryke Audio, or Ascendant Audio, or if you buy things at PartsExpress, you might want to look at Dayton.
The thing that will help you choose is that some subwoofer drivers need a big sealed box, and some others don't need that.
A friend of mine gave me this link to a sub called Bailey built on the Seas L26. They have nice things to say about the driver's musicality. Mayby the L26 will satisfy my needs dispite 7mm x-max ...
http://www.cain-cain.com/bailey/index.html
M.A.
http://www.cain-cain.com/bailey/index.html
M.A.
I'm now broadening my search for a musical sub driver.
The Seas L26 is still a possibility, very much liked what Cain &Cain had to say, but I'm also considering other options like the TC2+. Need to expand my budget if I choose the TC2+, but it outranks the Peerless XLS according to some sources on the net. Also found a driver built upon the TC2+ called RL-i sold by www.soundsplinter.com.
Any thoughts? Kind of hard to find finished diy-projects using these drivers like I want to, sealed active subwoofer for music ...
One question I can't answer is how much sound pressure I really need? I'm looking for quality bass at 'normal' listening levels, what requirement should I put on sound pressure when modelleing my sub?
M.A.
The Seas L26 is still a possibility, very much liked what Cain &Cain had to say, but I'm also considering other options like the TC2+. Need to expand my budget if I choose the TC2+, but it outranks the Peerless XLS according to some sources on the net. Also found a driver built upon the TC2+ called RL-i sold by www.soundsplinter.com.
Any thoughts? Kind of hard to find finished diy-projects using these drivers like I want to, sealed active subwoofer for music ...
One question I can't answer is how much sound pressure I really need? I'm looking for quality bass at 'normal' listening levels, what requirement should I put on sound pressure when modelleing my sub?
M.A.
I too am looking for a music only sub to match with my Fostex back loaded horn system and was intrigued by this thread. To check out this driver's potential I modeled the SeasL26 using WinISD, Unibox and Martin King's Mathcad worksheets for ported boxes. I used a configuration similar to the Cain and Cain Baily subwoofer. It models very nice with a F3 of about 30hz 3.5 ft3 box which is more than adequate for my needs. Attached is a screen shot of the modeling results from MK's worksheet as well as a sketch of the box that I propose to use. All dimensions are inside.
Attachments
As usual I don´t remember who, but someone at madisound compared XLS and TC2+ showing better perofrmance for XLS above 100Hz but superior results for TC2+ below 100Hz, especially at higher levels... about 20V.
Similar to findings on Scan 8555 and Excel W21 where the Excel was better above 100Hz and Scan 8555 was better below 100Hz.
/Peter
Similar to findings on Scan 8555 and Excel W21 where the Excel was better above 100Hz and Scan 8555 was better below 100Hz.
/Peter
Reply Badwater
Interesting simulation on the L26. However, you simulated a ported sub, but on the Cain&Cain website I find some text telling me that the Bailey is a sealed sub, on the other hand the images show some kind of port ...?
I'm fairly new at this, but as far as I understand a closed sub is preferred when one is looking for a tight and 'fast' sub. Is this a general truth or can a ported sub be 'fast' and musical (transient response?)? Most commercial high quality subs I've seen are sealed. I'm aware of the drawbacks in building sealed subs, like having to use low end EQ and high power requirements.
Have you ever considered using some of the popular high x-max drivers out there like the XLS, TC2+, AV12 ..? I understand the AE (Stryke) AV12 is in high regard but may be difficult to purchase right now. I have not modelled these drivers yet but I get the felling that they are capable of far more than I really need ... I have no experience myself building subs so I'm having a hard time figuring out exaktly what I need in terms of sound pressure and other specs. I listen to a mix of music ranging from such artists as Metallica to Diana Krall ...
M.A.
Interesting simulation on the L26. However, you simulated a ported sub, but on the Cain&Cain website I find some text telling me that the Bailey is a sealed sub, on the other hand the images show some kind of port ...?
I'm fairly new at this, but as far as I understand a closed sub is preferred when one is looking for a tight and 'fast' sub. Is this a general truth or can a ported sub be 'fast' and musical (transient response?)? Most commercial high quality subs I've seen are sealed. I'm aware of the drawbacks in building sealed subs, like having to use low end EQ and high power requirements.
Have you ever considered using some of the popular high x-max drivers out there like the XLS, TC2+, AV12 ..? I understand the AE (Stryke) AV12 is in high regard but may be difficult to purchase right now. I have not modelled these drivers yet but I get the felling that they are capable of far more than I really need ... I have no experience myself building subs so I'm having a hard time figuring out exaktly what I need in terms of sound pressure and other specs. I listen to a mix of music ranging from such artists as Metallica to Diana Krall ...
M.A.
Mac,
it´s not really true, the "closed box fast", "ported box slow". It´s more about the system response iow, the combination of sub + room. If the summed respons is peaking in the bass (especially lower bass) the excitation of standing waves will be stronger and therefore a subjectively boomy and "slow" sound.
A closed box is many times easier to integrate in the room due to a better match amplitude wise, and therefore often (but not always) "better/tighter" sound.
/Peter
it´s not really true, the "closed box fast", "ported box slow". It´s more about the system response iow, the combination of sub + room. If the summed respons is peaking in the bass (especially lower bass) the excitation of standing waves will be stronger and therefore a subjectively boomy and "slow" sound.
A closed box is many times easier to integrate in the room due to a better match amplitude wise, and therefore often (but not always) "better/tighter" sound.
/Peter
If you build a ported box and you tune it to something like 30 Hz, you'll have group delay near 30 ms if the box is big. It will also be boomy because at 30 Hz it will be louder than any other frequency.
That's why you can tell it's "slow", but there's no slow or fast bass...
If you tune a ported box really low, by using a low Fs driver, group delay will be negligeable in the audible spectrum and if you design the box correctly, it won't have a boomy sound caused by too much loudness at one frequency, then a ported subwoofer will sound almost as good as a sealed box and still play louder.
That's why you can tell it's "slow", but there's no slow or fast bass...
If you tune a ported box really low, by using a low Fs driver, group delay will be negligeable in the audible spectrum and if you design the box correctly, it won't have a boomy sound caused by too much loudness at one frequency, then a ported subwoofer will sound almost as good as a sealed box and still play louder.
I looked again at the Cain and Cain site and it sure looks like a ported sub. The dimensions appear to be similar to what I modeled, if you compare the driver to the sides, depth and length. Although I agree, that a sealed sub is mentioned in the write up.
I don't have a lot of experience with subs, but still feel that SeasL26 has a lot of promise for the reasons cited by Cain and Cain. I will have to do some more investigation to see where this takes me. Probably the best way to resolve this is to pick up the driver and build some test boxes to see which I like better - sealed or vented. I should be able to report back in a month or so.
I don't have a lot of experience with subs, but still feel that SeasL26 has a lot of promise for the reasons cited by Cain and Cain. I will have to do some more investigation to see where this takes me. Probably the best way to resolve this is to pick up the driver and build some test boxes to see which I like better - sealed or vented. I should be able to report back in a month or so.
Really? And who makes those drivers?
Since 1975 JonMarsh and I have built quite a few subs (literally multiple dozens of subs, there 6 operational subs in my house right now). And one of the best drivers we've ever used is the 12" TC2+. It is a state-of-the-art driver.
We ran distortion tests comparing it against most of the current crop of high-end/high performance drivers (including XBL^2), and the 12" TC2+ is certainly the low distortion champion. It also sounds extremely good.
When creating a sub, it's really nice to have an adequate amount of headroom/displacement. It's virtually impossible to get that using a 10" driver.
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