ok,
Basically we like throwing very big house parties, 3 of us are dj's and we already have a decent system but we want to make it feel like a club e.g a lot of bass whilst keeping clarity.
Me and my housemates (Im at Kent Uni) just clubbed together to buy two 15" subwoofers.
Currently what we have is..
100 watt technics amp.
2x 15" 250 watt subs
A Shabby cupboard which is about 45x15x15 (very rough estimate but a decent size, could be used as an enclosure)
This is our first project and my question is this, do we need a crossover / graphic equaliser / some other gizmo to sit inbetween the drivers and amp in lamens terms and where could we get this stuff in the UK.
What are your suggestions. The possibility of building our own enclosure could be done.
Cheers, Joe
Basically we like throwing very big house parties, 3 of us are dj's and we already have a decent system but we want to make it feel like a club e.g a lot of bass whilst keeping clarity.
Me and my housemates (Im at Kent Uni) just clubbed together to buy two 15" subwoofers.
Currently what we have is..
100 watt technics amp.
2x 15" 250 watt subs
A Shabby cupboard which is about 45x15x15 (very rough estimate but a decent size, could be used as an enclosure)
This is our first project and my question is this, do we need a crossover / graphic equaliser / some other gizmo to sit inbetween the drivers and amp in lamens terms and where could we get this stuff in the UK.
What are your suggestions. The possibility of building our own enclosure could be done.
Cheers, Joe
First, you need to find the T/S parameters of the drivers. If you build the enclosure well enough, you will not absolutely need fancy parametric equalizers and the like, but if you can get one, get it to correct nasty room modes that you might have. You'll need to build a lowpass crossover and maybe a rumble filter if you want some protection down low.
If your amplifier can really output 100W RMS and you build something big enough, it will be loud.
If your amplifier can really output 100W RMS and you build something big enough, it will be loud.
A bass horn is ideal for such a situation. Horn directivity gives good punch and clarity. SPL is another benefit. The higher cutoff compared to vented or sealed helps to maintain good punch and clarity.
But your driver may not be suitable for horn loading.
If not suitable for horn loading and you are going for vented, less extension maybe better. But whatever you do, do not go for audiophile type bass alignment in your application.
How big is the room you want to use it in?
But your driver may not be suitable for horn loading.
If not suitable for horn loading and you are going for vented, less extension maybe better. But whatever you do, do not go for audiophile type bass alignment in your application.
How big is the room you want to use it in?
Not sure i have the knowledge or time to build a crossover, would I be able to buy one?
The amp I have gives out roughly 95 watt per channel true power its a bit of a beast.
What would happen if i installed the woofers and wired them to a graphic straight tot he amp with everything but bass turned down using an equaliser?
The amp I have gives out roughly 95 watt per channel true power its a bit of a beast.
What would happen if i installed the woofers and wired them to a graphic straight tot he amp with everything but bass turned down using an equaliser?
The room is largish but will b filled with people, the aim is to have a vibrating dance floor and that bass feeling. The last house party 200 people turned up so we've decided to raise the bar for this next one...
We play hip hop and drum n bass so all very bass intensive and punchy. Would the two 15" cones provide such an effect?
The system at present is the 100 watt technics amp running 2 120 watt floor standers. The system with the new subwoofer will run off of the current amp with a nice new (old) vintage harmon kardon 60 watt v nice amp running the floortsanders.
We play hip hop and drum n bass so all very bass intensive and punchy. Would the two 15" cones provide such an effect?
The system at present is the 100 watt technics amp running 2 120 watt floor standers. The system with the new subwoofer will run off of the current amp with a nice new (old) vintage harmon kardon 60 watt v nice amp running the floortsanders.
To me it sounds like a bass horn will be the best for your application. The problem is to design a horn for a specific driver (if it is suitable for horn use). Horns are a bit specialized and for a novice the best approach is to stick to a proven design.
Please post technical details of your drivers.
Doing a search for bass horn threads on this forum may give you a better idea about them.
Active crossovers can be bought but you would need a separate amp. Someone on this forum may help you to design a simple active crossover.
Is the amp you mentioned dedicated to the subs?
A passive crossover will not be a good option, because there will probably be a difference in efficiency between the main speakers and the subs, whether ported or hornloaded. Low frequency passive crossovers are also not very practical.
Please post technical details of your drivers.
Doing a search for bass horn threads on this forum may give you a better idea about them.
Active crossovers can be bought but you would need a separate amp. Someone on this forum may help you to design a simple active crossover.
Is the amp you mentioned dedicated to the subs?
A passive crossover will not be a good option, because there will probably be a difference in efficiency between the main speakers and the subs, whether ported or hornloaded. Low frequency passive crossovers are also not very practical.
The sub will be run from a dedicated amp, the main speakers provide very good mid and high frequencies we just want a strong low end that shakes peopels insides.
If I wire the amp straight to the bass drivers and mount them both at the bottom of the box firing towards the floor would I egt this effect? Sound quality is important but wouldnt the mid and high end be covered by the floortanders mixed with the 'thud' of the sub?
I am sure this all sounds very basic for the 'audiophile' amongst you but my knowledge (which will improve) is yet sufficient to create an advanced box although I feel I can achieve something that fits what we require... A loud, very bassy sound that vibrates the dance floor and the people dancing.
If I wire the amp straight to the bass drivers and mount them both at the bottom of the box firing towards the floor would I egt this effect? Sound quality is important but wouldnt the mid and high end be covered by the floortanders mixed with the 'thud' of the sub?
I am sure this all sounds very basic for the 'audiophile' amongst you but my knowledge (which will improve) is yet sufficient to create an advanced box although I feel I can achieve something that fits what we require... A loud, very bassy sound that vibrates the dance floor and the people dancing.
Downfiring is a good idea, especially if you can put the subwoofer in a corner, another benefit.
If you want to turn everything down except the bass, I think it's better to put the graphic equalizer before the amplifier, 100W RMS in the graphic EQ... well...
The best bass for you would be with the bass horn, or at least a ported enclosure.
We still need technical information on your subwoofer drivers. You can't build a box blind folded. Especially a horn or a ported subwoofer. It will not sound good, and if it sounds good, it would sound even better.
If you want to turn everything down except the bass, I think it's better to put the graphic equalizer before the amplifier, 100W RMS in the graphic EQ... well...
The best bass for you would be with the bass horn, or at least a ported enclosure.
We still need technical information on your subwoofer drivers. You can't build a box blind folded. Especially a horn or a ported subwoofer. It will not sound good, and if it sounds good, it would sound even better.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5741814845&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT
My mate bought these pretty much blind fold, I kno they probably arent the best of quality and I have no details on them yet but you must understand we are students that like lots of bass
What are your suggestions for such a project?
My mate bought these pretty much blind fold, I kno they probably arent the best of quality and I have no details on them yet but you must understand we are students that like lots of bass
What are your suggestions for such a project?Something like that Bass Horn :
http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/TempestHornPageFrameText.htm
Or a ported box.
Could you email the seller to know who manufacture/build this driver? Or to ask him about the T/S parameters? It's really needed to build that.
If you can't do that, your only hope is to put them in a sealed box, the biggest you can find. It will be quite loud but not like a club...
http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/TempestHornPageFrameText.htm
Or a ported box.
Could you email the seller to know who manufacture/build this driver? Or to ask him about the T/S parameters? It's really needed to build that.
If you can't do that, your only hope is to put them in a sealed box, the biggest you can find. It will be quite loud but not like a club...
So what do u think the outcome of 2 15" speakers crudely thrown into an old cupboard wired directly to an amplifier would be? Would it vibrate the floor and peoples insides?
Has any1 here been to a club with body sonic installed? They have it in fabric london, the floor vibrates to the music mixed with an amazingly crisp yet studpidly bassy sound system. Dont think we'll b close to that! but do u think people will 'feel' the music?
Has any1 here been to a club with body sonic installed? They have it in fabric london, the floor vibrates to the music mixed with an amazingly crisp yet studpidly bassy sound system. Dont think we'll b close to that! but do u think people will 'feel' the music?
WIth those drivers I do not think that you will find a ready designed horn enclosure to suit them, unless to can trace the manufacturer and find out of they have a suggested horn loaded design. Vented is probably the best way forward then.
You will be surprised how poor performance can be if you do not use those drivers properly....Over excursion etc... Those drivers do not look like they have Xmax to waste!
If you want to mount them as suggested because you do not have a lot of time go ahead. But in the longer term I would suggest that you measure the T/S parameters if you cannot get hold of them. There are various ways of doing that. It will be worthwhile.
If you want to improve on that in the future I would suggest going for a compact horn such as Tuba24. Begin with two and then you can build more to stack as required for larger venues.
Nothing beats the punch of a good horn!!!
You will be surprised how poor performance can be if you do not use those drivers properly....Over excursion etc... Those drivers do not look like they have Xmax to waste!
If you want to mount them as suggested because you do not have a lot of time go ahead. But in the longer term I would suggest that you measure the T/S parameters if you cannot get hold of them. There are various ways of doing that. It will be worthwhile.
If you want to improve on that in the future I would suggest going for a compact horn such as Tuba24. Begin with two and then you can build more to stack as required for larger venues.
Nothing beats the punch of a good horn!!!
I'm back,
right the drivers came, very big!!!! We soon after cut two holes in the side of the cupboard and set the drivers in, we sealed up the edges of the box with wood glue / filler stuff and created a partition in the box as we r running it in stereo. Powered it up just through my mixer and we have definately got my room sounding like a club! very low clear crisp sound, amazing! Probably sounds v bad to u guys but for music like drum n bass it amazing.
Next ventures r sourcing crossovers for each driver and working out how best to attach to amps etc (any suggestions on binding posts etc?)... Also more sealing and painting etc..
I will have pics soon, very impressive 2 huge woofers attached to a box, also what do u think about bass ports, I have no details on my drivers, could a rough estimate be made?
Cheers,
joe
right the drivers came, very big!!!! We soon after cut two holes in the side of the cupboard and set the drivers in, we sealed up the edges of the box with wood glue / filler stuff and created a partition in the box as we r running it in stereo. Powered it up just through my mixer and we have definately got my room sounding like a club! very low clear crisp sound, amazing! Probably sounds v bad to u guys but for music like drum n bass it amazing.
Next ventures r sourcing crossovers for each driver and working out how best to attach to amps etc (any suggestions on binding posts etc?)... Also more sealing and painting etc..
I will have pics soon, very impressive 2 huge woofers attached to a box, also what do u think about bass ports, I have no details on my drivers, could a rough estimate be made?
Cheers,
joe
What you have now is the best you can probably achieve unless you get TS parameters. These drivers are pro drivers - big but with not much excursion. If you show them some decent power and get them moving more than 10mm it will start to sound ugly.
If you want to move on you need TS paremeters. You might need to hunt. If you can't find them, then you can measure them if you have the time/patience/willingness to learn how to do it.
If you do decide to go this next step, you have some options:
* big sealed box - a bit more of an audiophile choice, not the best for what you want
* vented box - about 60% more ooomph ... you can also design it for a bit of exaggerated bass boom - you can do this by making the box bigger and the tuning a little higher than a conventional vented box
* bandpass - bigger than a vented box, more output, not quite as good quality wise, you give up a bit of depth for more output for a given amp
* bass horn - better than all of the other options in most areas except ease of design and construction - not worth trying without parameters. If you are lucky then a design someone has done will be suitable for your drivers.
The easiest thing to do is make your box a solid sealed box and use a plate amp, look for a good deal. It has a lowpass filter built in - this passes the low stuff and cuts off the other stuff. If you set it to 120 Hz and it has a 2nd order lowpass (12 db/octave), then it will be -3 db at 120 Hz, -15db @ 240 Hz, -27db @ 480 hz etc .....
If you just use an eq unit then you will get much less attenuation of the midrange. They will play too much midrange, this is bad news.
If you want to take things further, then probably the way to go is save up a little more, learn a bit more and make an informed choice and NEVER touch drivers without decent info that let you design a box other than a sealed box!!!
www.billfitzmaurice.com
Consider his horns, probably the best thing for you guys as this is the cheapest way I know to get SPL - they use cheap drivers, you pay a little for the design, and they are cheap to build. They will get the kind of output that normally you would spend much more money on expensive drivers to achieve. The cheap 8" driver in the Autotuba which is quite small will proabably put your more expensive much larger subs to shame!
If you want to move on you need TS paremeters. You might need to hunt. If you can't find them, then you can measure them if you have the time/patience/willingness to learn how to do it.
If you do decide to go this next step, you have some options:
* big sealed box - a bit more of an audiophile choice, not the best for what you want
* vented box - about 60% more ooomph ... you can also design it for a bit of exaggerated bass boom - you can do this by making the box bigger and the tuning a little higher than a conventional vented box
* bandpass - bigger than a vented box, more output, not quite as good quality wise, you give up a bit of depth for more output for a given amp
* bass horn - better than all of the other options in most areas except ease of design and construction - not worth trying without parameters. If you are lucky then a design someone has done will be suitable for your drivers.
The easiest thing to do is make your box a solid sealed box and use a plate amp, look for a good deal. It has a lowpass filter built in - this passes the low stuff and cuts off the other stuff. If you set it to 120 Hz and it has a 2nd order lowpass (12 db/octave), then it will be -3 db at 120 Hz, -15db @ 240 Hz, -27db @ 480 hz etc .....
If you just use an eq unit then you will get much less attenuation of the midrange. They will play too much midrange, this is bad news.
If you want to take things further, then probably the way to go is save up a little more, learn a bit more and make an informed choice and NEVER touch drivers without decent info that let you design a box other than a sealed box!!!
www.billfitzmaurice.com
Consider his horns, probably the best thing for you guys as this is the cheapest way I know to get SPL - they use cheap drivers, you pay a little for the design, and they are cheap to build. They will get the kind of output that normally you would spend much more money on expensive drivers to achieve. The cheap 8" driver in the Autotuba which is quite small will proabably put your more expensive much larger subs to shame!
I agree with the approach Paul proposed. If you can't get the T/S parameters, it is safer to go with the sealed enclosure. A plate amp with settings that can help you optimize response is another good idea under these circumstances.
The Bill Fitzmaurice designs are probably the best you can do looking into the future. Although I have not heard any of his designs, I have used similar designs. Bill's designs enjoy a good reputation. The difference between a well designed horn system and a non-optimal enclosure can be dramatic. Do not rely on the diameter of the drivers only, they probably do not have a lot of excursion.
The Bill Fitzmaurice designs are probably the best you can do looking into the future. Although I have not heard any of his designs, I have used similar designs. Bill's designs enjoy a good reputation. The difference between a well designed horn system and a non-optimal enclosure can be dramatic. Do not rely on the diameter of the drivers only, they probably do not have a lot of excursion.
So a couple months on and wolla
http://www.onlinething.com/sub 004.jpg
SUbwooooooooofer, its v loud, v bassy and runs off of a 2x100 watt PA amp we borrowed off a mate, what ya think ppl?
Oh and thats a little wardrobe its built into, we picked up sum bass crossovers hoked it all together, stuck a dividing wall into the cab and it sounds quite mental!.
What you all think,
joe
http://www.onlinething.com/sub 004.jpg
SUbwooooooooofer, its v loud, v bassy and runs off of a 2x100 watt PA amp we borrowed off a mate, what ya think ppl?
Oh and thats a little wardrobe its built into, we picked up sum bass crossovers hoked it all together, stuck a dividing wall into the cab and it sounds quite mental!.
What you all think,
joe
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