In my new place, .. I have this ridiculous 15 - 20 ft high ceiling in a " relatively small" living room and my vintage MG-I maggies are having a hard time filling the room with bass (they weren't bass shy in my previous apartment, .. at least the witch of a neighbour didn't think so)
I have convinced (conned?
) the wife to let me build a sub to fill in the bass. I would have wanted to build a bass horn, .. but it'll be some time before I have the time to study up horn design so a sonotube seems acceptable for now.
fundamental question: is TL bass fast enough to keep up with the planars? the one thing i don't want (or minimize, .. practically speaking) is a disjoint sound.
use, .. music / HT
Currently, .. I have had to place the TV in the corner flanked by the planars on either side. I was thinking of a vertical TL sonotube placed against the corner.
Initial specification considerations
1. single woofer design. budget around $120 or so for the woofer and a few more dollars for MDF / sonotube, ... thinking of adire shiva 12",. but feel free to offer alternative suggestions. Would a 10" or 15" be better considerations. The mains seem to start rooling off in the ballpark of 50Hz - 60Hz . I have an MTX 4000 12" autosound woofer ( http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/archive/Thunder4000Ref.pdf )lying around but not sure if it would be suitable
2. amplification: i have a 105w x 2 mcintosh 2100 lying and an active crossover lying around around to serve up the juice until (if) I purchse some dedicated sub amplification
3. With the sub so near to the TV, .. will magnetic interference be an issue, ..
4. woofer orientation: the simplest design would seem to be a downward facing design, .. any disadvantages with this vs. building a box to house the driver
5. As I said, .. the roof is very high,.. so I CAN build a very tall tube if it is desirable. What size is available out there and what would be desirable to use.
6. What advantages / disadvantages would I expect to get using a TL sonotube vs. a sealed / ported sonotube. I would think deeper smoother bass, .. but I'll let the experts answer this one.
7. The only 2 links I've found useful on TL sonotubes are
http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/projects/steve/index.html
Also some useful info here http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16286
I'd like to study up martin kings alignment tables, .. but looking for starting points for now to give me a head start.
thanks, V
I have convinced (conned?
) the wife to let me build a sub to fill in the bass. I would have wanted to build a bass horn, .. but it'll be some time before I have the time to study up horn design so a sonotube seems acceptable for now. fundamental question: is TL bass fast enough to keep up with the planars? the one thing i don't want (or minimize, .. practically speaking) is a disjoint sound.use, .. music / HT
Currently, .. I have had to place the TV in the corner flanked by the planars on either side. I was thinking of a vertical TL sonotube placed against the corner.
Initial specification considerations
1. single woofer design. budget around $120 or so for the woofer and a few more dollars for MDF / sonotube, ... thinking of adire shiva 12",. but feel free to offer alternative suggestions. Would a 10" or 15" be better considerations. The mains seem to start rooling off in the ballpark of 50Hz - 60Hz . I have an MTX 4000 12" autosound woofer ( http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/archive/Thunder4000Ref.pdf )lying around but not sure if it would be suitable
2. amplification: i have a 105w x 2 mcintosh 2100 lying and an active crossover lying around around to serve up the juice until (if) I purchse some dedicated sub amplification
3. With the sub so near to the TV, .. will magnetic interference be an issue, ..
4. woofer orientation: the simplest design would seem to be a downward facing design, .. any disadvantages with this vs. building a box to house the driver
5. As I said, .. the roof is very high,.. so I CAN build a very tall tube if it is desirable. What size is available out there and what would be desirable to use.
6. What advantages / disadvantages would I expect to get using a TL sonotube vs. a sealed / ported sonotube. I would think deeper smoother bass, .. but I'll let the experts answer this one.
7. The only 2 links I've found useful on TL sonotubes are
http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/projects/steve/index.html
Also some useful info here http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16286
I'd like to study up martin kings alignment tables, .. but looking for starting points for now to give me a head start.
thanks, V
Attachments
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.passdiy.com/projects/el-pipe-o-1.htm
To match a set of planars, you might want to consider dipole or infinite baffle subs if your budget, room layout, and SO allow. Both offer the speed and transparency to keep up with planars.
IBs...
Cult of the Infinitely Baffled
Dipole...
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/dipole/
http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/dipolesub.htm
CG
IBs...
Cult of the Infinitely Baffled
Dipole...
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/dipole/
http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/dipolesub.htm
CG
Two comments that are totally not going to help you at all...
1) Get yourself out of the corner and along a wall.
2) I have the same halogen lamp.
Ok, more serious... that I've heard of commercial stuff, I prefer a pair of 10's in a sealed box over anything with 12s or 15s. I say build yourself a sealed box with 10's and experiment with your MTX 12 in a tall TL or whatever.
--
Danny
1) Get yourself out of the corner and along a wall.
2) I have the same halogen lamp.
Ok, more serious... that I've heard of commercial stuff, I prefer a pair of 10's in a sealed box over anything with 12s or 15s. I say build yourself a sealed box with 10's and experiment with your MTX 12 in a tall TL or whatever.
--
Danny
Thanks for the replies:
1. unfortunately, .the corner is the only reasonable place I can set up my rig (believe me , i have tried alternatives), .. the dimensions of this room are rather curious .. the height slopes from 15ft to 20 ft and is greater than either the width or the breadth !! the other walls are taken up by furniture. my horns have occupied the music room, so these will stay here.
regardless, .. interestingly, some planar-philes prefer the corner alignment, .. its not too bad IME, .. seems to load the room better, .. except for the bass (rear wave cancellation, ceiling hieght ?? )
anyway, . this isn't a placement thread so lets leave it at that. i'll also consider the IB / dipole baffle, . but I may have to abandon that as I don't have much real estate to work with.
any more suggestions, .. please post
thanks
1. unfortunately, .the corner is the only reasonable place I can set up my rig (believe me , i have tried alternatives), .. the dimensions of this room are rather curious .. the height slopes from 15ft to 20 ft and is greater than either the width or the breadth !! the other walls are taken up by furniture. my horns have occupied the music room, so these will stay here.
regardless, .. interestingly, some planar-philes prefer the corner alignment, .. its not too bad IME, .. seems to load the room better, .. except for the bass (rear wave cancellation, ceiling hieght ?? )
anyway, . this isn't a placement thread so lets leave it at that. i'll also consider the IB / dipole baffle, . but I may have to abandon that as I don't have much real estate to work with.
any more suggestions, .. please post
thanks
zobsky said:
According to the factory specs & GMs alphaTL spreadsheet (mine has beta constants & i haven't updated it yet), with its high Qt, small Vas it fits into an amazingly compact alphaTL.
I'd try a 10" (ID) tube, 59" long, stuffed with 6/10 of a pound of fiberglass insulation. (GM tells me the stuffing is actually lbs/ft^3)
dave
Here is an interesting example of a dipole sub for ESL's. You might find this interesting
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I would try a pair of dipole woofers under your existing speakers, two per side to continue dipole radiation down to 50 Hz, as I suspect this will integrate best with your existing speakers. Dipole radiation is actually more useful IMO in the bass range than in the midrange. One of the big advantages is dealing more effectively with room modes within the modal region of the room. Below this point, (it may be different in your room) you could then pressurise the room with a single monopole. By only requiring the dipoles to cover the modal region you reduce the displacement required.
This approach, I'm told, is best in medium sized rooms. If your room is too large, it might not be quite so effective. It also becomes difficult to get enough output in larger rooms.
This approach, I'm told, is best in medium sized rooms. If your room is too large, it might not be quite so effective. It also becomes difficult to get enough output in larger rooms.
Paul, ..
thanks for your recs. ,.. nice links on dipole subs, ..but i'll pass on them for this project beause of
1. expense, ... 2 to 4 drivers needed, .. as opposed to 1 , .. plus the added cost of amplification (depending on how i configure them)
2. space, . to an extent (though i could have the planars on top of them)
might think of them for the main music room with the fostex horns, .. at a time in the future, ..
BTW, .. saw your webpage and your MTM TLs . I built the cabinets for a similar dayton MTM TL some time ago, .. just need to buy the drivers / crossovers one of these days, .. i've been in the tube realm lately
so much to do, .. and so little time (and money)
thanks
thanks for your recs. ,.. nice links on dipole subs, ..but i'll pass on them for this project beause of
1. expense, ... 2 to 4 drivers needed, .. as opposed to 1 , .. plus the added cost of amplification (depending on how i configure them)
2. space, . to an extent (though i could have the planars on top of them)
might think of them for the main music room with the fostex horns, .. at a time in the future, ..
BTW, .. saw your webpage and your MTM TLs . I built the cabinets for a similar dayton MTM TL some time ago, .. just need to buy the drivers / crossovers one of these days, .. i've been in the tube realm lately
so much to do, .. and so little time (and money)
thanks
Zobsky,
If not the dipoles due to the number of drivers, then TL sounds like the way to go.
Looking at the driver, it has a fairly high fs for a subwoofer of around 30 Hz and a fairly low xmax of ~9mm. You will find that where there is bass below tuning that there will be very limited excursion control as is a characteristic of TLs. I have watched mine wobble at 2 Hz on music CDs and it can seriously limit SPL so for HT use you really want a rumble filter, possibly even as high as 30 Hz or you will find the limits of the driver very quick.
I suspect that this characteristic of TLs is related to their transient response being superior to vented alignments. The cone excursion is limited to a lesser extent in TLs and this brings them closer to the ideal transient response of IB or dipoles where the transients aren't compressed by an air spring.
You may wish to consider eq above tuning to smooth out room modes if you have a particular listening position. This would require the ability to measure in room response.
If not the dipoles due to the number of drivers, then TL sounds like the way to go.
Looking at the driver, it has a fairly high fs for a subwoofer of around 30 Hz and a fairly low xmax of ~9mm. You will find that where there is bass below tuning that there will be very limited excursion control as is a characteristic of TLs. I have watched mine wobble at 2 Hz on music CDs and it can seriously limit SPL so for HT use you really want a rumble filter, possibly even as high as 30 Hz or you will find the limits of the driver very quick.
I suspect that this characteristic of TLs is related to their transient response being superior to vented alignments. The cone excursion is limited to a lesser extent in TLs and this brings them closer to the ideal transient response of IB or dipoles where the transients aren't compressed by an air spring.
You may wish to consider eq above tuning to smooth out room modes if you have a particular listening position. This would require the ability to measure in room response.
planet10 said:
currently trying to source a local concrete supplier for tube, .. my local HD / lowes just don't have long enough tube.. unless i splice together two 4 ft tubes
i'm assuming that the stuffing values are per linear foot, right, ?
any suggestions to prevent the poly fill packing / settling over time, ...or is this not really an issue?
also, any one see issues with tube flex due to the large size ?
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